Job Discussion Forums

[can_teach05]

Hi,

I have been looking into teaching in Taiwan for some time. There is a recruiter who is hiring teachers with their Bachelor of education. Does anyone have any experiences in working for a public government school that would like to share? Is it a good idea to work in a government school? Do they often pay more than a Bushiban or language school?

Are there just primary schools or do they also hire for secondary schools?

Any opinions welcomed.

Thanks

Can_teach

[clark.w.griswald]

Government schools that often employ foreigners include elementary and junior high schools. Senior high schools do too, but classes in senior schools are less common. I assume that this is because most foreigners tend to teach conversation classes, and conversation classes generally don't help students pass English tests as much as English grammar classes do.

You need to take care. Most positions offered in government run elementary and junior high schools are NOT legal positions. Positions in private schools are legal however.

There is a current program being offered by the MOE that does enable foreigners to teach legally within some selected government schools, but many of these schools are in isolated areas.

My understanding is that in order to qualify for this program, you must have an education degree, you must be from either Canada or England, and that you must be employed overseas and brought here. These were the initial criteria for the program, and although they may have changed a bit, I would suggest that you should be very wary of anything the recruiter is telling you if you don't meet the above criteria.

[Aristotle]

Although no warning or advisory has been issued, working in Taiwan's public schools is often illegal.
The main reason for this is that agents can not get you a work visa to teach in schools other than the specific school address listed as you employer.
The Ministry of Education on Taiwan employs the vast majority of foreign teachers in public schools through third party agents.
This facilitates kickbacks to the Ministry of Education in exchange for the contract to supply the foreign teachers even though it is illegal.
The exception being in Taipei city public schools which seem to be a fairly good employer of foreign teachers.
Good luck and please read this.
http://www.geocities.com/taiwanteacher2002/Success.html
A.

[can_teach05]

Thanks for the information on government run schools. Has anyone heard of the the recruitment company Proefl? The name of the guy is Blair Zettl? He is based in Taiwan and in Canada. He is looking to hire teachers with their Bachelor of Education and place them in Public government schools. Apparently the pay will be from the school and not the recruitment agency. The pay is 60,000/month. Three weeks vacation at Chinese New Year. Does this sound decent or legal? I'm wondering whether it would be worth just going there first to search for a decent job.

Off topic for a moment, are there many international schools in Taiwan? Can anyone recommend any well paying decent international schools?


Cheers

[clark.w.griswald]

[Aristotle]

[clark.w.griswald]

[BinnoK]

Hi I was also offered a position with Blair, it looks too good to be true. I am interested in a 10 month contract well, sept to june idea so I may travel in july and august. I have had no interview and he assures me I have a job. I spoke to him on the phone briefly. I am a certified teacher (Bed ) and I also interviewed with Hess and CECN - They had thorough interviews and seem to have more stipulations or expectations regarding how many hours you work and extra curricular you must participate in. Has anyone else dealt with CECN ? Also I am stilll not sure about public vs private schools, I keep reading different things!!! Help
Rebecca

[Aristotle]

[Blair Zettl]

Ok, well, if you want to know about this guy, here it is right from the horse's mouth.

I have one goal in mind in recruiting - to match good people with good employers and to help them smooth out any cultural misunderstandings. FYI, I also write children's music (Hipkids to release within the next few months), write big kids music and play the classical guitar.

I have spent a considerable amount of time working with an employer of teachers here in Taiwan. We like to work "by the book" as much as possible. You have to if you working with public schools because you are closely scrutinized by the Taiwanese gov't. And Clarke - you're not quite accurate regarding Taipei - a few schools offer positions but they do not have a city program as others do. We expect they will begin a civic program within the next two to three years.

The employment laws for foreigners have changed in recent years - mostly to our advantage. Please note the following:

* anyone with a bachelors degree may be legally hired by a school in Taiwan. HOWEVER only positions filled by B.Eds will receive government funding for the position and will have the ability to offer an ARC directly through the school. If a candidate without a B.Ed, but a B.A. or higher is hired the candidate may be contracted through a management company or bushiban and fees must be paid by the parents committee or other outside revenue source.

* B.Eds. may be hired directly by the schools, but usually the schools often ask a management company to assist in the recruitment and management of the foreign teachers. I work with only with those management companies whom I feel treat teachers fairly.

*B.eds may be legally employed from Canada, the USA, England, NZ, Aus, and South Africa. However, most schools prefer North American accents.

* the wages and benefits for B.eds are set forth in a schedule issued by the national government, with a slight increase in salary for every year worked. B.Eds If you have been here for more than one year you should be receiving and increase of about 15000 nt/year. I have the schedule in hard copy taken from the net. You may be able to find it in the government directory, but you'll need a Taiwanese friend to help you navigate that part of the site.

*as of recently, in Taiwan, you may hold two positions with two seperate work permits. You may move your ARC without your employer's notice, however, you still are required to give two weeks notice prior to termination. This prevents the need for the Hong Kong run.

*any contract must be written within the bounds of law to be considered 'legal' by the judiciary. If is is not, it is 'illegal' and therefore not a real or legally binding contract. For example, some employers stipulate that after working at their company you may not engage in employment with another company with X months within the same city. This is simply not legal to write and is only an empty threat.

*60,000 per month teaching 9-3.30 with a 1.5 hour lunch break is a good solid income, with opportunity to make more in evening hours. They aren't easy hours, but they're well-paid. (I was making about 110,00-120,000 total with privates and public school teaching income.)


Songbird Management is the name of my registed corporation within Canada, province of Saskatchewan. Songbird owns proefl.com, and a few others. Sorry for the confusion.

Working here as an unlicenced recruiter isn't illegal, however only a licensed recruiter may issue ARCs. (In our case, I work with a local management company which may also issue ARCs - the two are different legal entities). Please don't confuse "licenced" with 'good' - a lot of these firms take advantage of Phillipina maids here in Taiwan taking 50% of their annual salaries. (Yes, really) Also if you as a teacher are recruited by one of these they may scim you salary EVERY MONTH. A "Licensed" recruiter in Taiwan does not mean they are licensed to operate abroad, in Canada for example They would require the proper visas. or would need to have a Canadian in their employ.

I have been in Taiwan for 4.5 years and have been recruiting for 3. I only do it on request and insist on a clear and honest approach. I don't work with schools which I consider to be unfair or disrespectful toward teachers and visa versa.

Oh - to Aristotle, I wouldn't take a Taiwanese contract to foreign lawyer - there's no way for the lawyer to know Taiwanese law. Further if its only in English is hardly defendable in a Taiwanese court anyway. If you don't feel comfortable with the employer, don't sign and demand change, be prepared to walk away if he/she won't. Remember it's not just about legality, it's also about how you're going to get along with this person. I've found its the same here with employers or students, start off as a pitbull and then get nicer. It's easier than the converse. My former employer says contracts here, "aren't worth the paper their written on".

Finally to Rebecca, whether you realize it or not, your brief telephone discussion was an interview. I don't interview the same as others here, I don't have to. I get a sense of the person largely from the resume and how they are on the phone. I have about a 95% success rate in matching people with jobs. Anyway you're a Canadian B.Ed - you're gold here - don't waste your degree and ARC in a private school, as I told you before you can still teach privately or in a bushiban at night if you want and have your public school job in the day. Privates pay better and tend to be less tyrannical.

Final advise, just don't trying play the guitar somewhere without a visa - or say "Good Bye Taiwan" for 5 years!

Hope this helps.

[clark.w.griswald]

Welcome to the forum Blair. It will be good to get the perspective of a recruiter on this forum.

[Blair Zettl]

Basically, Clarke I feel that you are well-meaning but I think you comments are based on outdated information. For all of the issues you have mentioned as "you are wrong". No, I'm not. I'm correct. We can play "no, I'm right: you're wrong forever," which is a useless arguement, so if we continue I suppose we should get some sources. I have a few brief comments below in response to your assertions. Let me assure you, that my intention is to provide teachers coming to Taiwan with the best possible information on how to live and prosper here, as I'm sure is yours.

I have been working in the public system for three and a half years now. I do not profess to be able to read Chinese characters, therefore I cannot say that I have read the legal information myself. However, my source for the information I have provided is directly from the management companies which I work with. They have had numerous large-scale contracts with local governments here in Taiwan, overseen by both local and the national departments of education. Clarke, from what you have said in your post, I believe you are not familiar with these programs which are a seperate entity (entities) entirely from the MOE that you have mentioned. Also depending upon whom your sources are in government, you must be aware that civil servants aren't always aware of new laws and programs. (For example, I know for a fact you can get a visa as a musician, but everyone I talk to just says, "it's difficult." - guess I have to go to Taipei for that. Maybe I should just get married!)

Regarding the legality of foreign teachers in schools, management companies hold large numbers of ARCs (yes, issued by the national gov't) and work permits for the same is commonplace on the north-east coast. These are completely legal, but the management company must first win a contract with the given city or municipal government. As I have mentioned and I personally have worked for some of the companies who have legally held these contracts and ARCs/workpermits specifically for city public schools. This is what I mean by "civic" program. Incidently, I was taped teaching in 2003 at Shue-yuen school. There were more gov't officials and media people in the classroom than students (as you can imagine the kids were bouncing off the walls). This was run on Formosa TV. If there would have been a legal issue, surely somebody would have jumped on it.

Further to our comments on contracts, going to court is extremely complicated and expensive. With an all-English contract you are presuming that the judge and lawyers would be fluent in English or there would be a court-appointed translator. However you look at it, I'm sure you'll agree it's a huge, expensive mess. (Required viewing: "Lost in Translation.")

As a recruiter, one may be hired as a human resource manager by a bushiban. This is a different work permit and ARC entirely. However, my point was, if I operate legally out of Canada and contect teachers to schools here, I may, of course offer this service as long as any fees paid are paid directly to my company in Canada. To this end a wire-transfer slip or similar documentation is required. It is perfectly legal for my Canadian company to operate under international contract with a company or companies here, which is what I do. (In fact this provides a way for the management company to write off recruiting fees and expenses for taxation purposes). My activities here in Taiwan are limited to helping people find apartments, get their first cell phone, generally get situated and to act as a unofficial liaison in matters of dispute. To stay sane, I don't work with a lot of teachers. As a local teacher, I may also act legally as a teacher trainer.

Regarding recruiting firms holding ARCs, I mean to say, as a foreign worker, your sponsor may be either a bushiban or a recruiting agency. The company who's name appears on your ARC. There are restrictions on how many foreign workers a company can hire, based on a number of factors including, but not limited to, the number of Taiwanese employees they have working for them.

The wage schedule is for all B.Eds. hired by school, not only for the MOE program. This is what was given to our company this year by local governments acting under the authority of the national government.

I hope this clarifies some of the previous statements. For future arguments I shall defer to the appropriate legal authorities whom hope will response in an informative manner.

[clark.w.griswald]

Blair you have done yourself and your recruitment company (proefl.com) a great disservice in continuing to post inaccurate information even after it has been pointed out to you that you really need to do more research on the matter.

After reading your post I am afraid that my advice to users of this forum would be to avoid your services. You clearly have very little understanding of foreign teacher employment practices in Taiwan, and as a result you are in no position to be giving advice to newbies arriving in Taiwan, particularly when one considers that you are getting paid for the advice you give.

[Blair Zettl]

In response to Clarke's last post, I am not a Taiwanese lawyer. In Taiwan, I take legal advise from nationals I work with in legal businesses who in turn work with lawyers regularly to operate their legal businesses. Just as in Canada I hire a lawyer to help with the legalities of running a business there. The information I provide is based on years of PRACTICAL experience working WITHIN the public system via the channel I have outlined above. Most importantly, there IS a way to do it legally. Teacher (B.Eds.) who have hung on this long through the post, be assured, you will have legal status if you are teaching at a public school as long as you ensure your your paperwork is processed correctly.

The legal information Clarke has provided may be accurate in terms of employment, (note the disclaimer) but it does not cover the entire legal framework of operating a bushiban and its legal activities. Much less the further complication of running one of the legal school programs to which I had referred earlier. This does, in the end, affect activities in which teachers may engage. The management companies with which I work are actually bushibans with legal status thereof, not recruiting agencies as Clarke has surmised above.

Currently, the provision of teachers for public schools via the management companies which I refer happens in cities and municipalities with the full authority of the national government in Taiwan. From what you had written originally, it is apparent that you are unaware of these programs which currently exist, which, as I also mentioned, are separate from the MOE programs to which you refer. They have involved extensive negotiation between local and national government(s). We are not privy to all such negotiations, but in the end these contracts between local governments and management companies operate fully within the bounds of national law. This is evidenced by the fact that the national government issues a quota of up to 65 ARCs for one such management company (bushiban) within one city, operating as one bushiban in one location. These ARCs are only provided to or via the contract recipient in each city or municipality, or may be held directly by the public schools. The contract is awarded annually through a tendered municipal or civic process and includes recruiting, training, and management of foreign teachers as well as reporting on the same. The length of the ARCs is based on the duration of the program, which can run from August through June or March through January. Approximately 250 teachers have worked within this system over the past four years, with 80 of these currently doing so. The national government is well aware of the activities of these teachers and is the governing authority which now requires B.Eds. in public schools for nationally or locally funded positions. Two years ago B.Eds were not required in the program, which is how it was that I, with a masters in music was able to teach within this program. (At that time public schools could not carry ARCs.)

I invite other B.Eds. currently working in the public school system to give some insights in this regard. Looking forward to some other opinions and experiences.

On the issue of recruiting, we will agree that bushibans are not required to use any recruiter, local or foreign. They are certainly not forbidden to use outside recruiters (that is outside of Taiwan) or to advertise on international sites such as this one. The law to which you refer is relevant to domestic recruiters involved in domestic activities. I reiterate, I and my company operate as a legal entity in Canada as a recruiter, not in Taiwan. Therefore I am not subject to Taiwanese law, but Canadian in this regard. It is perfectly legal to own and operate a company in a foreign country while engaged in other work (teaching) in Taiwan. Therefore Clarke's extensive argument regarding myself and proefl.com in the Taiwanese legal context is baseless. Further, the companies that I deal with here in Taiwan are subject to Taiwanese law and have the full authority to hire the candidates which I present to them. FYI, I do physically go to Canada to conduct the bulk of my recruiting business, which is seasonal.

Regarding whether a foreign person may act as a 'recruiter' or human resource person within a company:
you omitted an important point in article 46:
11. Other specialized work ad hoc approved by the Central Competent Authority due to the lack of such specialist in the domestic employment market and the business necessity to retain the service of such specialist therefor.

So a bushiban may ask the national government permission to hire foreign manager whose duties could include recruiting, training, or yes, washing toilets as you suggest. This doesn't mean the government will say yes, by the law allows for such applications to be made and approved if evidence can be provided that the service is required by a company and that there are no nationals available to fill the position.

[mpan]

cool ...... I can't wait for Clark's repsonse ..... this is getting good .... Blair I am afraid that with what you are trying to feed us you are simply not making your case. Clark provides a solid, well researched position with direct links to back up everything he asserts while you are telling us to trust you because you have �PRACTICAL� experience. You have said it yourself that you get all you information indirectly from a third party.