Job Discussion Forums

[Brian D. Granberg]

I write this not to defame anyone but rather to inform. I wish this warning had been posted a year ago and I would have had the opportunity to read it. It is not that the year I spent teaching at the college that Sunnys English Club was a disaster, but rather, it clearly pointed out that Sunny, her husband David and their "headmaster" Telly have no business scrupples whatsoever.
They lied to me to get me to come to Chengdu, lied to me when I got to Chengdu and continued to lie to me after I had signed the contract with the college they introduced me to. However, let me point out a flaw in their vocabulary, they do not consider a falsehood told from one human being to another to be a lie.
There is a reason why on her website Sunny wants you to come to Chengdu without a specific job commited to you. That is because she has no specific job in mind for you.
There is a reason why she stresses the urgency in getting to Chengdu as quickly as possible. It is to make you think that speed is an issue. It isn't!
Besides the lie of luring me to Chengdu with the "promise" of a certain salary, I am going to relate one more of numerous lies that were told to me in my dealings with Sunnys English Club. I was promised a DVD player in my apartment. This was not promised by the college I signed a contract with but rather by Sunny. There was no DVD player in the apartment. When I pushed the issue, I was constantly ignored. I persisted for weeks. Five weeks into my employment I received notice that Sunny had left a DVD player at the office for me to pick up. Upon setting it up in our apartment we quickly learned that the only thing on it that worked was the VCD component. When I contacted Sunny she said that it was a new unit and if there was a problem it was "my problem." David told me that we could bring it to where it was bought because it was a "new unit". I told them I would need the receipt and they said they would get it to me. They never did! My Chinese guide from the college I worked at and myself brought the unit to three different repair shops and all told us that the problem was too expensive to repair. When queried about whether or not it was a "new unit" all shop owners laughed. The estimates of the shops ranged from two and a half to four years old as to its age. I got that in writing from all three of the shop owners. Three weeks later, the VCD component of the unit also quit functioning.
While going back and forth on the question of the DVD unit with Sunny and David, Telly entered into the fray. One night late I received a telephone call from Telly with threat after threat. One threat was that Sunnys English Club could get me fired from my job at the college I was working at "in a matter of hours." The next day I checked with my dean, unsure about the relationship between the "Club" and my college, and found out that there was no connection and even if there was, they were very satisfied with my work. Telly also told me that they had been told that "I was making everyone at the college feel like they were my slaves."
I asked him how he knew this and his reply was that "they had their ways." Knowing that this was crazy (totally out of character for me) I asked the next day at the administration and was told that there had been no communication between the college and Sunnys. Then Telly made his biggest faux pas threat, against me personally physically. He did not know me because I do not disregard physical threats. I am not a violent person by any means but I also am not intimidated in any way. My response by email to him was that he knew where I lived and I had no idea of where he lived so if he wanted to meet me face-to-face, I would have no problem with that. Of course being the kind of person he is, that is the last I heard from him.
So that is partially my story about Sunnys English Club. If you would be interested in hearing more of the lies, I would be happy to relate them to you. I think it is very sad because they are what gives recruiting native speaking English teachers a "black eye." My only goal here is to warn naive potential customers to what I consider to be a poor choice.
You do not need Sunnys to find a good job in China.

[Babala]

You spend most of your post talking about a DVD player, that according to you wasn't even included in your written contract (by the way, most of us buy our own DVD players). The only other point I get get is that you say someone threatened you with physical violence (you don't mention how) and that you then thought it was a wise decision to challenge this man to a fight Sounds like the problem is you.

[Brian D. Granberg]

Babala,
You are correct that the DVD was not included in my written contract. The DVD issue which I spent so much time describing was just one example, besides the biggest lie of promising me a salary that just didn't exist, of the many lies that Sunnys English Club used to get my to come to Chengdu. It had nothing to do with the college. I realize the DVD issue seems like a small issue but it was one that I had leverage on as I had none concerning the salary issue. The school year was beginning and I needed a job so I signed a contract for much less than what I was promised from Sunny.
I, in no way, thought it was a "wise decision to challenge this man to a fight" and I didn't. I told him that we should "meet face-to-face." How you deduce that I was challenging him to a fight is totally beyond me. There is no way to make cowardly threats in a face-to-face confrontation that are easy to make over a phone. This also reflects on the "Club" because I truly believe that Telly did not make the connection with me on his own accord.
As far as your remark about me "being the problem", if you think that it is acceptable for recruiters to lie to people to get them to spend their money to come to a certain city, then I think it is you that has the problem. The whole topic I addressed is one of what I consider to be a very unscruppulous recruiter. If I can help just one person to avoid the lies I was told, my mission in writing what I wrote has been accomplished.

[Roger]

Some Christian fanatics will tell you you are a liar because you call purple "red"...

Frankly, I don't believe much in your story that is full of negative comments without much substantiation. "Lies"? What "lies"?

You don't need to read about a recruiter on this board; suffice it to heed the general advice from most:
don't get hired by recruiters!

[chengdude]

I'm afraid you aren't going to elicit much sympathy from the hardened veterans on this board without divulging more dirty laundry that you may or may not wish to air in public.

I'm in Chengdu and, for one, would be interested in hearing the sordid details, so c'mon, lay them out! Sunny's is now advertising for next term on a few websites, they have an easily verifiable office address on Renmin Nan Lu, and their website is up and about one-third complete. It would be quite useful to hear of your experiences as they've definitely hung their shingle out for business.

[gulam2]

You do get my sympathy.
I know what it is like to be treated badly and told lies on a big time basis.
Also to be cheated out of money.
I was cheated of 7000 Rmb by MY English Club in Tongliao
you have a right - even a duty to warn others about BAD companies.
If they then want to work for that company at least you warned them.
I think you are brave and correct to posty the way you did.

[Zero Hero]

I concur with 'gulam2'. As I see it, the original poster employed the example of the DVD player to demonstrate the attitude of his erstwhile employers. That is, the events surrounding this DVD player epitomise their attitude towards FTs. Also, this was not an isolated example; he related other difficulties, too.

Competition is tight among employers as there are quite obviously fewer FTs than there are posts to be filled. In order to make themselves appear more competitive, it seems that there is a growing trend for employers to exaggerate claims as regards pay, conditions, and general benefits, which often simply evaporate upon the actual arrival of the FT.

FTs in China should be laying down the law to employers, not the other way around. Labour is a commodity (a very real one) and it is clearly a seller's market.

[chengdude]

Just to clarify, I am certainly not a "hardened veteran" on this board, or in China for that matter, and I am firmly on the side of the OP in doling out sympathy.

Looking at Sunny's partially-built website, one thing did stick out: they are at least quite upfront about visas/residence permits, stating that in the case of colleges and universiites, you will be working with the school directly....while in the case of middle and primary schools you will be working with Sunny's as the bulk of those schools don't have permission to hire foreign teachers. Would still love to hear more about Sunny's as they are in my backyard.

[Babala]

I may have been a little harsh in my last post. Here's what I suggest.

1) You never mentioned your visa status. Do you have a working visa?

2) What are the most important things your school lied about. I'm sorry but I don't think a DVD player is a big deal. If it was so important, you should have had them put it in the contract. I know you used it as an example of their lies, but is there anything really big that they lied about?

3) When I first read your post, it sounded to me like you had challenged that guy to a fight. You mentioned how you don't back down from physical violence. I apologize for that implication but I still think telling him to come by your house for a face to face if he threatened you was poor judgement on your part.

I think many people would like to know the complete story.

[Chris_Crossley]

[Zero Hero]

True. Never underestimate the role of pragmatics in the ultimate interpretation of an utterance. 'Dinner will be served at 5', for example, can be a promise, a threat, or a command.

[Brian D. Granberg]

Well, as an English teacher I would not have imagined that I could be so misunderstood so much in both meaning and intent.
To those who offered sympathy, I thank you but my objective in writing what I wrote was not to elicit sympathy. I truly believe in the saying "buyer beware" especially at my age. At the same time I do believe there are different levels of naivete and that is what my posting was aimed at along with levels of maturity of younger possible employees.
The biggest lie was that while I was "negotiating" while not in China, I had a solid offer to teach in another part of China for 6500 RMB per month. I was told by Sunny that if I came to Chengdu, she would place me in a job that paid "more than that." After one day in Chengdu, I quickly realized that that job did not exist. At that time, due to the starting date of the school year and my monetary situation, going to another part of China was not an option.
In regards to the visa issue, I came to China on a tourist visa on Sunny's advice (since then I have learned that this is a very unwise thing to do). In her emails and faqs she clearly stated that her firm would handle all the costs of changing my visa to a working visa and the cost of obtaining a work permit. This was also a big lie as I paid for all documentation costs. These are not unsubstantiated claims as I have saved all the emails and faqs that I was supplied by Sunny to "cover my butt."
I respect that posts that point out that sematics are so easily interpreted differently. When I suggested that Telly and I meet face-to-face, I still do not understand why this was an unwise move on my part. He was speaking to me from a point of advantage. He knew where I lived and he was making threats to me over the telephone. All I did what to "level the playing field" by trying to settle his threats face-to-face. There was no violent intent on my part. I am over fifty years old and yes at one time in my life I was a violent person. I was trained to be violent, having served in the Vietnam War for over eighteen months. However for the last twenty years or more, I would challenge anyone to find a more peace loving human being than myself. This does not mean I will back down if challenged to violence. I will protect my family and home to death if it need be. I knew very little about this Telly and what he would do beyond threats. I had an idea though and it proved to be so true. As I said before, when challenged and after learning that I couldn't be intimidated, I never heard from him again.
To the poster who simply said "just don't use recruiters", how smart you are! The problem is that everyone in the world is not as smart as you. There are honest people in the world who believe in the character of man and naievly trust other peoples honesty. As I have said before, those are the people my goal was to help. The sad part is that recruiting receives a "black eye" from recruiters like Sunnys English Club.

[Mac]

My experience with sunny's is small but gave me insight into her way of doing business. Last year before I signed my contract with the college I just finished I saw her ad on the internet. I asked her about a few jobs she pushed 1 job on me about teaching high school students in a special program with a program in England this was to be a china/ england joint program. She said I had to be first approved by her company and then approved by the English rep from England. I asked her how long would this process take she said three weeks. I said this would take too long so I told her the term was soon beginning and I needed to find a job now. She didn't seem to care about my feelings in this matter at all. So I told her I would find a job somewhere else. She said if I needed something to call her and we soon parted. During the winterbreak I called her and asked her if she could find me a temporary job she told me that she would get back to me. She never did! About two weeks later she called me up and asked me if I could go to Mason and do a speech contest for her I told her I had asked you to find me a temporary winter job and you told me you would get back to me and you never did. I asked her how could you not ask me to do this when you never bothered to get back to me on the winter job? She proceeded to slam the phone in my ear! I would say to anyone out there don't do any business with this woman whatsoever!

[Roger]

My sympathy hasn't increased in the meantime. What has happened to you is not uncommon, and you bear at least some responsibility for it yourself.

FIrst thing: I said you should have avoided her in the first place. Why did you not ask in this forum for opinions?
It is true that many end up being pimped around by agents no matter whether they want to or not. People want jobs, others know where they get them - someone has to pay the go-between. Fair and fine, ain't it? Do you know that your employer had to pay your agent?

That is why I am a bit mifed by your whininess about that DVD player. It wasn't Sunny's job to get you a DVD. It could at best be construed to be your final employer's job to do it. Even so, I strongly suggest you leave your perfectionist mindset in your backpack until you depart from this land. Things malfunction a lot here, and you are not always entitled to warranty services. I know that since I have bought a number of appliances that developed major or minor problems; it's nearly always at the consumer's expense. Why should your employer look after your interests?

As for your visa, you did right in coming on a tourist visa. Again, the visa costs are to be borne by the FT, not your employer. Your work visa does get applied for, and paid for, by them. How you enter China is your business, always has been and always will be. Unless, of course, you can be trusted to honour your obligations towards your future employer when they invite you officially and supply documents to enable you to get a work visa right back home.

WHich is not the case with everybody. You said they were "liars" - in my opinion you are being overly fickle and overly sensitive! Likewise, I can give you a tonne of examples of FTs that were bad apples!

It sometimes is disgusting to know how many FTs are that! Employers quickly tire of the antics of certain westerners!

[Brian D. Granberg]

Well as I have stated before, I won't back down from a physical threat or challenge. Neither will I back down from a verbal barrage or assault.
It seems some of the outrageous statements by "Roger" need to be addressed. The thing I don't understand is if you are soooo smart and think that giving opinions about ones own experiences in the hope of possibly helping someone far more naive than yourself is bad, why do you waste your time reading and commenting here?

"don't get hired by recruiters" - Gee, I guess this is kind of my whole point or unscruppulous recruiters because there are honest ones out there. I totally believe that pointing out the bad ones is a good thing and maybe in a matter of time if people do publicize their bad experiences the bad ones could be put out of business and the whole scene could be improved. I think I pointed out in an earlier post that potential employees do not need the recruiter as there are plenty of jobs available.

"what has happened to you is not uncommon" - So, in your opinion because something it not uncommon, does that make it right? Because teenage pregnancy or teen suicide is not uncommon in the USA, should everybody just say cest la vie and adjust the blinders on our eyes?

"someone has to pay the go-between" & "do you know that your employer had to pay your agent" - please, can we have a constructive dialogue here without being patronizing? The point is and you seem to miss it completely - the go-between does not have to lie to a potential client!

"it wasn't Sunnys job to get you a DVD"- In no way did I ever, would I ever or will I ever say that it was Sunnys "job" to get me a DVD! It also is not Sunnys "job" to promise a DVD in everyones apartment who she finds a job for! That is the point, if she is not going to have a DVD in everyones apartment, she shouldn't write that in her advertisements - it's that simple!

"things malfunction alot here" - Oh, and I guess because that is true, it's just the way it is and there is no way of things getting better. Such pessimism is astounding. "perfectionist mindset" - I don't think so, I totally accept Chinese culture and society for what they are, but that in no way means I don't think there is not room for improvement. China is the one who constantly voices it's desire to develop and to a certain extent an idolization of Western degrees of civilization cannot be denied. China also claims on a regular basis, its desire to root out corruption. Well unscruppulous employment agents is a form of corruption and gives the industry a bad name quite similar to the travel industry where leeches exist everywhere making promises that they can't and have no intention of keeping.

"why should your employer look after your interests" - I have no idea where this came from. You on several occasions have tried to assimilate that I am criticizing my employer. Nowhere in any of my posts have I done that or would I do that. All my criticism has been aimed at Sunny.

"you did right in coming on a tourist visa" - I really beg (just a term because I do not beg) to differ. If you read the Chinese guidelines for foreigners coming to China to teach or if you read the US embassys (the only countries reccomendations that I have read and assume other countries would be the same) guidelines, they strictly reccoment NOT coming to China to teach on a tourist visa!

"the visa costs are to be borne by the FT, not your employer" - au contraire, the visa costs can be paid by one of three parties, the agent (as was promised to me), the employer or the FT (as you put it). It all depends on who agrees to pay it!

"very fickly and very sensitive" - Fickle and sensitive are very subjective terms and you are certainly entitled to your opinion in the matter and your opinion matters not the least to me. My posts were not aimed at you as you are sooo smart in all the matters involved. My posts are and were aimed at those, most likely newcomers, to the scene who are far more naive than yourself.

"a tonne of examples of FTs that were bad apples" - Yes, that is very true but the FT does not have any of the leverage that the employer has. The employer can fire the employee for basically no reason or as happened in many cases, trumped up reasons. The employer also has the leverage of pay and there are countless examples of foreigners being unjustly cheated out of promised pay. Most foreigners come to China to teach for very good altruistic reasons and are paid very little for the effort they put out and the contracts are weighed heavily in favor of the host institution. You may term this as being "whining" and I could care less but this is a fact that should be known and publicized often.

I will add one more thing. To those of you who are beginning to question why I am here and whether or not I like it here, I love it here. I love the people, the culture and the country (I'll reserve my opinion on the government) but that doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement.