Job Discussion Forums

[chi-chi]

Has anyone teaching (wherever) noticed this attitude?
I didn't see it in Korea, but then again, I was working at a brand new school.
I see it a lot in Taiwan-even if it's in a blacklisted bushiban, from employees who have only been there two months.
What do you guys think? Which countries seem to draw a lot of ex-pats with this attitude, and which ones don't see it as much?

[Lucy Snow]

I'm not sure what you mean by your question. Are you talking about fellow expats who want nothing to do with you? Fellow teachers who are unhelpful at best?

[chi-chi]

One or the other, or a combination of both.
If you have to ask, you've probably have never had this happen to you.
I'm sure that some people on here have to know what I'm talking about!

[Stephen Jones]

In computer jargon a sandbox is a certain amount of space within another program, normally a web browser, where a prgram can have effect. The sandbox is cut off from all the rest of the computer's software.

So maybe your metapnor is more appropriate than you realized.

[Lucy Snow]

I was lucky enough to never spend a lot of time at a language school when I was in Japan, and at the universities I taught for, the other teachers were always helpful.

BUT, other foreigners in the area we lived in were another story. People who wouldn't make eye contact with you on the street. Foreigners who didn't want anything to do with you becauset they were into going native, and only spent time with other Japanese. There was a visiting professor from Canada who refused to meet the foreign teachers at my university because we weren't interesting enough for her. So she spent her time with a group of Japanese whose command of English was neglible at best, so I don't know how interesting she found it.

I think what you're going through isn't all that uncommon, regardless of where you live.

[M.K.]

I can see that established teachers in an area may not want newbies encroaching on their "territory". In fact I have a suspicion that a few of the negative posts on the Job Information Journal have quite possibly been written by teachers who don't want their location to become overrun with teacher/backpacker types. Or not. Just a theory of mine.

I'm curious, do any of you experienced teachers find yourself feeling/acting territorial about your chosen location?

Hopefully I'm interpreting the topic of this thread correctly. If not, I'll hang my head in shame and go back to the newbie forum where I belong

[bnix]

I am a bit puzzled over the meaning of the original thread.However,I found Lucy Snow's comments and allusions especially interesting.

I think some foreign teachers avoid contact with other foreign teachers for several reasons:
1.Let's face it.There are a lot of ah,very unusual people in this "field".It pays to be careful...even if this comes across as antisocial at times.

2.Some people are on some kind of a cultural headtrip..."I only want to associate with the indigenous people...because I do not want to consort with those lousy foreigners".This is a weird sort of inverted ego trip.

3,Lucy Snow's comment about some foreigners not wanting to make eye contact is an interesting one.I live in a small Korean city where at any given time there are probably no more than eight or ten foreigners in the whole city.Whenever I DO see another foreigner around town,they usually avoid eye contact.

4.Several of the foreigners in town are connected with religious organizations.Although I do not mind saying "hello' to them...I am not interested in hearing their religious views.

[Kent F. Kruhoeffer]

Dear chi-chi:

The 'stay out of my sandbox' idea is something I like to call the 'I don't see you' phenomenon ... and it is VERY common in Asia, where we stand out by virtue of our skin color and/or round eyes.

I experienced it in Korea, Japan and even the Philippines; at work, on the streets, in bars, public restrooms ... everywhere.

First, it is true that EFL tends to attract some strange cats.

When these strange cats suddenly find themselves at the center of attention in a strange land, it's my opinion that they feel threatened by the presence of another 'white' guy or gal. In other words, 'this is my special and unique experience, and your presence here is ruining my cultural high'.

The good news is this: After you leave Asia, this silly attitude is much less prevalent. When everybody looks the same, people tend to climb down off of their high horses.

Just my 2 cents for ya

Yours truly,
keNt

PS: I see you!

[richard ame]

Hi Forum
I don't know if I am interperting this correctly but I think this thread relates to a lack of ex-pat co-operation or more specfically the unwillingness of the more established members of staff at any given location to pass on the benefit or wisdom of their experience . There have being occassions in the past where the longer serving personell are just detached from the other teachers and have no wish or desire to share anything with them even useful information about where to pay bills or the best restaurants or bars are ,you know the kind of general stuff that makes us want to stay in any given sandbox instead they throw the stuff in your face . Do I get a prize for guessing correctly?

[chi-chi]

Yup, that's part of it.
There is also some Anti-Americanism (by other expats) but I will have to make another thread on that (or maybe a poll? hmm) because the 'stay out of my sandbox' mentality can effect anyone of any nationality.
"I'm in a bad mood today...maybe it's the new guy!" (Quote overheard about a another new teacher at one job here in Taiwan.)

[Ben Round de Bloc]

In general, I've found that foreigners aren't particularly friendly towards other foreigners in this city until after they've met and gotten to know each other. More often than not, foreigners tend to be standoffish and aloof even in situations where they could easily be friendly, the exception being the few social events that draw a number of foreigners. Even at those events, many foreigners are pretty cold and rude towards other foreigners if they don't already know them.

When I first began my current job, there was only one other foreigner working there. Now there are the two of us plus an exchange teacher but only for this school year. We three foreigners get on well with each other. The "stay out of my sandbox" routine was blatant regarding the local English teachers working there, however, although the atmosphere of the place has changed a lot for the better during the 7 years that I've been working there.

To give an example, for some reason a copy of the teacher's book for one of the levels I taught wasn't available. At a department meeting, I mentioned that I didn't have the book and asked if anyone had an extra copy. The next day, one of the younger local teachers came up to me, discreetly handed me her extra copy, and said, "But don't tell the other teachers that I gave you this, because they'd be really angry with me."

Another example, one day I was sitting at a large table in the school cafeteria, the only place available when I'd arrived. A couple of other teachers came in and sat down at the other end of the table. A few more teachers joined them until all the chairs were taken. Another teacher arrived. The teachers at my end of the table said to me, "Maestro Carlos needs a place to sit. Would you move to another table?"

I'm not sure if this routine from locals is "stay out of my sandbox" as much as it's a case of local EFL teachers feeling intimidated by native-English-speaking EFL teachers. Some of my co-workers should feel intimidated by anyone who can actually speak the language, although I'd never do or say anything to indicate this at work, but I digress.

Personally, I enjoy meeting people from everywhere including those from my own country. Yet, I've heard foreigners say things like, "If I wanted to meet other gringos, I'd have stayed in the States." Also, I suspect that some foreign EFL teachers become territorial and might view newcomers as competition for their jobs.

A final point, in the city where I live, outside of tourist areas and language schools, a person just doesn't see many foreigners. If I see foreigners on a city bus or in a supermarket, I usually notice them -- we do stand out as being foreigners -- but I admit that I don't acknowledge them if I don't know them or if they don't initiate a conversation.

Best wishes!

[Wolf]

Yeah, other foreigners, and how to react.
Some people have a hard time with other foreingers. They ignore them on purpose, etc etc.

Personally I'm in a bit of a pickle over this. Where I live, a non - Chinese will get stared at 24/7. I remember I was in a park and I smiled and nodded to a black gentlemen (or is that too un - PC of me). He just shook his head. I guess he was hoping that I would have enough multicultural savvy to just leave him be as EVERYONE was aknowleding his presence. So now I WON'T stare at the foreingers, or initiate conversation unless I get within reasonable range (ie pretty close.) Just because I don't want to make them uncomfortable (enough people doing that job.)

On the other extreme, I used to live in Aichi - Ken (Nagoya - kinda between Tokyo and Osaka, more on the Osakaish side.) One of my students told me once "Oh, I have a friend in Mie. She's also Canadian. Do you want to meet her." That's a different prefecture. I said "no, just because she's Canadain I won't go all the way to Mie."

I try to be neutral. In Japan I had friends of all stripes, but once I learned the language I found most of the people I hung out with were Japanese just because of demographics. When other westerners come up to me and talk, I must admit to sometimes feeling a teeny weeny bit annoyed for a second. But if they're decent guys/gals then hey, instant fun conversation, what's the harm in that if I'm not in a deathly rush? But if they're "interesting characters" and now I get stuck with them, then, well, isn't feeling annoyed then justified? I had "intersting characters" who were locals bother me as well, and I feel annoyed for the same reason - they're jerks.

Bottom line, this is touchy. Some people want to be your bud cuz you speak English. Some people don't see why they should suddenly "let you in the sandbox" just because you happen to speak English. And sometimes people who might have a rough job and constantly get accosted for free English lessons (and who know the local tounge) might associate English with pain and not want to use it as a means of communication if they can help it. I have to admit to, in my darkest moments, espousing this way of thinking. No, I don't condone it now, but decent folk who get thrown into the mix might just get sick of being treated differently, even if it is supposedly "better" just cuz they're western, and when another westerner treats them different too, then, all bets are off. Outta the sandbox. And no, I was never THAT bad.

As for the "hey this is MY cultural experience" thing, I've never felt/encountered it.

We need a list of Rules of Engagement or something.

[grahamb]

Almost everywhere you go you'll find a McD*n*lds and at least one so-called "Irish" bar. Globalisation's got a lot to answer for.

[johnslat]

Dear grahamb,
Over here, McD*n*lds yes ( though they seem to be more popular as a terrorist target than a fast food joint nowaday ), but bars, Irish or otherwise, there are none. Bars are, so to speak barred from the Kingdom. Even globalization has its limits.
Regards,
John

[MartinK]

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