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tarajane
Joined: 30 May 2005
Posts: 16
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 Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 11:26 am Post subject: i wanna pick your brains! |
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hi,
I have a few questions. Some of these questions may have already been answered on this forum but there are only 24 hours in each day! 8 hours sleeping, 8 hours working, 4 hours studying, and karaoke (!). I do not have enough time to search every post. sorry! so please don't rip into me for my ignorance! 
ok...
I have been teaching in Japan since April 04, and will finish at the end of September 05. I have deferred my university degree (travelling sounded sooo much more attractive!).
I want to teach in China obviously. The observant ones out there will have realised I do not have a degree! gosh!
 Will I be able to teach (or more importantly, will I be able to obtain a z-visa and a Foreign Experts Cetificate) in China without a completed degree, or will a partially completed degree and ESL teaching experience suffice?
Is it worth the risk of teaching without a z-visa, maybe on a student visa or a business visa?
I am considering heading back to Australia after I finish in Japan for a short holiday. I am considering taking a TESOL course (from TEACHINTERNATIONAL) during this time (over October 05).
If I can't obtain a visa and certificate without a degree, will a TESOL certificate work instead of a degree?
Given my time frame, from Japan to Australia to China in 1 month and during this time I may be obtaining a TESOL Certificate...I don't think I will have any chance of obtaining a visa for China before arriving in China, unless I can do it in Japan without a degree (  ).
So, can you give me any suggestions or recommend any provinces where the authorities are lenient towards people entering China, with the aim to teach, on a tourist visa (without a degree or perhaps with a TESOL Cetificate)?
And, can I find a job in China in November?
Thanks for your help, I know these questions are a little stupid but it would be helpful.
thanks
tara |
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tarajane
Joined: 30 May 2005
Posts: 16
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| Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 11:30 am Post subject: |
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ALSO
Is a smaller city or a major city more likely to give me a visa? |
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go_ABs
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
Posts: 507
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| Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 12:38 pm Post subject: |
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I'll take a stab at these, but I'm by no means an expert:
| tj wrote: |
| Will I be able to teach (or more importantly, will I be able to obtain a z-visa and a Foreign Experts Cetificate) in China without a completed degree, or will a partially completed degree and ESL teaching experience suffice? |
You are technically required to have a degree to get a legal teaching position in China. However, there are many people who teach here illegally. They can do this because a) their school has contacts that can get them a Z-visa for underqualified applicants, or b) they work on another kind of visa, usually an F-visa.
| tj wrote: |
| Is it worth the risk of teaching without a z-visa, maybe on a student visa or a business visa? |
I don't know. Does anyone here know the punishments for teachers found working on a non-working visa? Roger?
| tj wrote: |
| I am considering heading back to Australia after I finish in Japan for a short holiday. I am considering taking a TESOL course (from TEACHINTERNATIONAL) during this time (over October 05). |
I did the Teach Int'l course after university. It was a good starting point for a complete newbie, but since you have some experience it might be quite easy for you. Still, I'd recommend doing it, if for no other reason than it would make you more employable.
| tj wrote: |
| If I can't obtain a visa and certificate without a degree, will a TESOL certificate work instead of a degree? |
Unlikely. More likely is you'd be offered a job on a non-Z visa.
| tj wrote: |
| So, can you give me any suggestions or recommend any provinces where the authorities are lenient towards people entering China, with the aim to teach, on a tourist visa (without a degree or perhaps with a TESOL Cetificate)? |
Sorry, I don't know. It seems obvious to me that if this is your intent, keep mum about it going through customs. I hear that some places will no longer be able to change a tourist visa to a working one. There is a thread about this somewhere.
| tj wrote: |
| And, can I find a job in China in November? |
Because of the ongoing shortage of teachers in China, you can pretty much find a job at any time of the year. My first job was one that started in December.
| tj wrote: |
| Is a smaller city or a major city more likely to give me a visa? |
It depends on provinces, not cities. Just taking a guess here, but it's more likely you'll come across someone with enough guanxi to get you a working visa in a big city. I may be wrong.
Many of the long-termers on this site see lots of threads like this each year, and may not reply. On the other hand, they might - in which case they'll likely correct the info I've given you. But to the best of my knowledge, what I've said here is true.
PS Hope you don't mind me calling you 'tj'. |
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tw
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
Posts: 3898
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| Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 10:02 pm Post subject: |
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Hello Tarajane, I agree with many things go_ABs said but there are a few things I disagree slightly or think need to be clarified. I am pretty well like you, experienced but with no degree and will soon be TEFL certified.
| Quote: |
| Quote: |
| Will I be able to teach (or more importantly, will I be able to obtain a z-visa and a Foreign Experts Cetificate) in China without a completed degree, or will a partially completed degree and ESL teaching experience suffice? |
You are technically required to have a degree to get a legal teaching position in China. However, there are many people who teach here illegally. They can do this because a) their school has contacts that can get them a Z-visa for underqualified applicants, or b) they work on another kind of visa, usually an F-visa. |
There isn't any definite law YET. Yes, most employers do ask for a university degree (especially colleges and universities). However, language schools have far lower expectation and will pretty well take anyone with a foreign face and/or white skin. Granted, the most important thing of course is being able to get that all important Foreign Expert Certificate (work permit). This is where connections come in and also locations. Places like Dalian, Qingdao, Shanghai, and Beijing are some of the most sought-after teaching places in China and as such, it's much harder getting work permit there without a degree than in rural inland cities where they are dying for foreign teachers.
I personally don't consider one working illegally just because that person is underqualified. Just so long the person has a valid Z visa (and for that matter Foreign Expert Certificate) and Resident Permit for Foreigners, as far as I am concerned that person is teaching legally in China.
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| Quote: |
| Is it worth the risk of teaching without a z-visa, maybe on a student visa or a business visa? |
I don't know. Does anyone here know the punishments for teachers found working on a non-working visa? Roger? |
Just recently there was a thread on teaching with business (F visas). It seems to be OK as long as you are only teaching for under 6 months. Teaching with any other kind of visa (especially tourist visa) is strictly illegal and forbidden. If you get caught doing that you will be fined and deported. Read this thread: www.eslcafe.com/forums/job/viewtopic.php?t=26538
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| If I can't obtain a visa and certificate without a degree, will a TESOL certificate work instead of a degree? |
Unlikely. More likely is you'd be offered a job on a non-Z visa. |
I have seen job ads that ask for degree OR TEFL certificate. Of course, that's what the employer wants. What the Foreign Experts Affairs Administration wants is different.
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| And, can I find a job in China in November? |
Because of the ongoing shortage of teachers in China, you can pretty much find a job at any time of the year. My first job was one that started in December. |
If you are looking for ANY teaching job then yes, November is fine because language schools pretty well look for foreign teachers any time they have enough students enrolled to begina new class. If you are looking for teaching jobs in public schools, then no. School terms begin in mid to late August and mid to late February only.
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| Is a smaller city or a major city more likely to give me a visa? |
It depends on provinces, not cities. Just taking a guess here, but it's more likely you'll come across someone with enough guanxi to get you a working visa in a big city. I may be wrong. |
Elaboration: the provincial branch of SAFEA will probably be more lenient and more likely to authorize a school (especially a public school) to hire the foreigner if the school is located in a city that doesn't have as many foreigners as such places like Dalian, Qingdao, Shanghai, and Beijing. You should consider less populated cities if you want a better chance of getting work permit. But you should not take any risks by arriving in China first with a tourist visa and start job hunting. |
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Roger
Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 9138
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| Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 1:43 am Post subject: |
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| Answers depend to a large degree on what you want to teach, and who you want to teach. |
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Volodiya
Joined: 03 May 2004
Posts: 1025
Location: Somewhere, out there
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| Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2005 2:35 am Post subject: |
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TW wrote:
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| I personally don't consider one working illegally just because that person is underqualified. Just so long the person has a valid Z visa (and for that matter Foreign Expert Certificate) and Resident Permit for Foreigners, as far as I am concerned that person is teaching legally in China. |
It's not just you, TW. A foreign teacher is fully documented, if he has a "Foreign Expert Certificate" (FEC) and a "Residence Permit for Foreigners" (RPF). The FEC establishes that his employer is licensed to employ foreign teachers and that the foreign teacher has met the minimum qualifications required under Chinese Law. There is discretion permitted, and exercised, in the issuance of the FEC, as TW has said.
TW also wrote:
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| Just recently there was a thread on teaching with business (F visas). It seems to be OK as long as you are only teaching for under 6 months. |
There is a lot of heat, and little light, on that last statement, with many posters taking the position that you categorically cannot work for remuneration in China on an "F" visa. Although I invited them to offer authoritative information from official sources to that effect, in support of their position, they have not done so, to date.
http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/job/viewtopic.php?t=26417
I consider the question open, until something authoritative is produced to the effect that a school may not employ a foreign teacher, and have him enter and work on an F visa, under the following, narrow conditions:
1) the school is licensed to employ foreign teachers;
2) the prospective foreign teacher meets the minimum standards as set forth in the SAFEA Guidelines for employment of foreign experts; and,
3) the contract for employment is for less than six months.
Here, as in the other thread, I would add the following:
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When all is said and done with this thread, it may have been established that it is not possible, under any set of circumstances to work, lawfully, on an F visa, as many maintain. But, I take the position on this, and all questions reqarding the Chinese Law and administrative practice, that we should examine the law, and the application of the law as it actually occurs, as the best evidence upon which to rely.
Those who have read my posts will understand that I'm in a continual search for further information on these subjects. I take no "hard and fast" position: I'm open to a change of opinion on any of these subjects; and, I believe we owe our readers more than bald faced assertions, and more than the mere repetition of information provided by others, without investigating further the basis for those assertions, and that information. |
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