Job Discussion Forums

[englishgibson]

My former Chinese employer had been rather nice to me, resigned my Contract, raised my salary etc even though �a pain in the a..� due to her many times unreasonable requests, before I asked her that �money question�. �Where is my flight reimbursement from my last year�s Contract, please?� I hoped for an answer; �Sorry, I�ll see to it right away.� How na�ve was I? Her answer was; �Don�t you trust me!� and �I am surprised that you are so rude� (she said).
My relationship with her immediately deteriorated, and even worse ���.
Is this a cultural difference? Have you experienced these kinds of behaviors yourselves?

How quickly can a professional relationship turn from good to bad in China?

Cheers and beers

[Norman Bethune]

[tofuman]

Here are some of my tips for ruining your relationship with your employer:

Tell the FAO's assistant that the administration of the school are idiots and advise him to leave before he becomes like them.

Insist that items of the contract be fulfilled or you will leave.

Explain that you don't need to work in China or at the particular institution because you have other choices.

Accuse the administrator of being a thief and a cheat.

Tell the students that if they don't want to study, they should go to hairdressing school or plan for a career selling popcorn, potatoes, etc., on street corners.

Tell the FAO that he is a liar and if he doesn't see to it that you get your airline reimbursement by a certain date, you will not give students their marks. Tell him that you don't trust the school to pay you, so you must resort to such tactics.

Tell the administration if they don't provide a quiet flat, you will move into a hotel and expect them to pay the fee, otherwise you will leave.

Tell the FAO that the institution in which you work is riddled with corruption and provides a fraudulent education.

Contact the provincial FAO. Don't take any of his craap either. Imply that if he is powerless to get things straightened out you will leave.

Refuse to enter the FAO's cigarette smoke filled office and make him come out in the hall to talk with you.

Tell your female students that they should refuse to marry a boy if he uses tobacco.

Most of these are fairly effective in contributing to souring relations with Chinese employers. I've used them all.

[englishgibson]

"Loss of face" for the "honest" school owner! I like that one, Norman.

Tofuman, excellent directions for ruining one's pro relationship in China.

Cheers and beers

[hilary]

Here's another: tell anybody and I mean ANYBODY AT ALL that you are looking around for another job for next term, just to keep your options open because they haven't actually asked you to stay on yet. That'll do it.

And another: be the hapless victim of the employers' own mismanagement and/or perfidy, so that they feel embarrassed and slightly guilty and have to apologise.

[dajiang]

I found that it's hard to separate business and personal in dealing with the employer/FAO. In all employer/employee relationships I've had in Europe there was a clear division between the two.

In China I found this was very different. It's also interesting that in China they start business negotiations by first inquiring about your family, and some other small talk, before in the end coming to the business bit. In Europe this is turned around completely: first talk about all business aspects, then when finished talk about the other stuff.

I found in negotiations with employers I had to be really careful not to offend or be rude inadvertently. But I think that there should be some understanding on the side of the FAO/employer as well. They know we do stuff differently, and they also know about the scams being pulled on laowai teachers elsewhere. So they should understand it if we're a bit wary and more businesslike/less friendly. I think we all do our best to adjust to the Chinese way of settling matters, but we also need a degree of clarity and especially where it concerns a lot of money.

I think if I were in Englishgibson's position I would apologise and explain the differences in approach here. If she was genuinely offended then I think she is overreacting. It was a good thing you asked about the flight reimbursement anyway. It's only business.

Dajiang

[tofuman]

EG, Calling the relationship between an FT and an FAO/school a "professional relationship" is certainly pushing the range of the term "professional relationship."

Some advocacy groups that try to legitimize prostitution and rights for "working girls"in the States refer to that line of work as a profession. I question that use of the term.

There is nothing "professional" about tolerating or working for an institution or people who constantly lie and violate the terms of employment. Professional relationships do not bring about the victimization of one party and the advancement of the other.

Professionals are not incompetent, indifferent, negligent, or sadistic in relationships with clients or colleagues. Exceptions may me made in the case of career criminal types and other sociopaths, particularly in the area of sadism. Even they, however, are usually competent in their execution of duties, unlike FAOs here.

Codependent type relationships in social services such as nursing, teaching, social work and counselling contribute to burnout in these fields. Substance abuse, alcoholism and other maladaptive behaviours attest to the price individuals who are willing to become victims of dysfunctional and toxic institutions must pay.

Anyone desperate enough for a job to tolerate abuse and victimization from employers here has mental problems.

[englishgibson]

[englishgibson]

[hilary]

[tofuman]

Some time ago in the States there was a program that required the contestants to do various stunts to win a cash prize. Some required physical skill. Some could be considered debasing, such as eating grubs whizzed in a blender, transferring repulsive objects from one point to another by mouth, etc.

One guy, when confronted with a particularly gross requirement simply walked away, saying, "You people are sick." I often wondered why more people did not walk away. Why would they be publicly humiliated, debased, made to look ridiculous?

In many respects, my experience here has been like that game. I have been expected to participate in academic fraud, accept contract violations against my own interests, tolerate inefficiency, incompetence, and indifference.

I won't do it! I gave notice at the beginning of the term. I'll walk away with my dignity as a human being intact as well as my self respect. Had I played the "face" game with these imbeciles, I would have retained neither.

[englishgibson]

Tofuman, you've got a pride. I admire you for it.

I've got my pride too. Had I been proud enough with EF English First in my position of Director of Studies, I would not have lasted three months there.

When we reach that age of 40 (as Hilary has mentioned above) and I have just got there a couple of months ago, we also learn how to compromise. I have lasted more than three months there (in EF), but I am not there anymore.....Because I've got my pride too.

Sometimes, I am sorry that I have not compromised enough with my former employer, and sometimes I am sorry that I have not showed my pride the first three months and walked away.

We all make our own choices!

Cheers and beers

[burnsie]

Many people here are obviously sensitive to cultural differences, as we all should be to some extent, but as some posters have pointed out there is a difference between being treated with fairness and being cheated.

It doesn't matter if you are Chinese, English or Pakistani we all know what ethics are and how people should be treated.

Being sensitive to offending cultural differences can stop you from actually negotiating something strongly that you feel is your right to have or do.

The difference (or problem) we find is that negotiation is a well developed artform in China that is long a full of compromise and it's something that we all have to learn for us to survive in this country.

[Songbird]

Speaking of money matters, can anyone give me a little advice for this little situation? It's nothing major or anything (yet) and I admit the whole timing situation of when I arrived put everyone out of whack, but here it is-

I arrived to teach uni students 2 Dec 04 (obviously 2/3 into the semester, they coulda said no, but they still wanted me), so the Spring Fest hol was 6 weeks later. When I went to get my pay in January (I in fact got 2 mths as the pay office was closed in Feb) the FAO refused to give me any of the travel allowance. I was a wee little worried but thought okay, it's fair enough, I'll wait. So I should be due a fair bit (??) in July's pay- should I get all of 2200 of it, or just half?

Also, I am leaving the 27 Nov (never to come back here!!) and I get paid the 14th every mth, so this month I will expect my last mth's pay, perhaps the other half of the travel allowance and most importantly, my airfare reinbursed (8000)- given there's a only 2 week window between my pay & leaving, what should I do if they refuse to pay up? I know it's WAY too early to discuss this, I'm getting paranoid they WON'T pay, seeing as the FAO tried everything to DECREASE my salary like 1 week after I arrived (when I spat the dummy and ran back to my recruiter demanding an explanation everything died down after that and I've been paid on time, correct amount (there's been other issues but that's a whole new post!)!

Tell me, why is it we come over with the best of intentions (usually), ready to do a job and we just get spat in our faces??!! What do we do to deserve it?? I just don't understand this bloody country........

[Roger]

THere seems to be a danger of exaggerating the CHinese employers' moral weaknesses...
I have had my unfair share in rudeness and being short-changed - but I can safely say these incidents were all possible only because my employers were not my official sponsors (I worked for them part-time and on an hourly basis).
I was dismissed unfairly on two occasions, but since I had a legal contract with both these employers they paid me all my dues. I even got those reference letters I demanded.

Once an unscrupulous training centre manager cancelled my lesson the same day they were due and failed to inform me in time. It happened 3 times in a short while, so I went to tell him I was not going to take any more of this. He snickered and refused to pay me my accumulated wages of the month; I then went to the Director of that cultural centre (in fact, a library owned by the city) and complained about their staff. He was hauled into the office, made to explain his stance, and finally he agreed to pay me most, though not all dues. He refused to pay me the wages for the lesson cancelled the same evening.

I think most of us who work legally have little problems. We still have to perate with a heightened cultural sensitivity. We mustn't be confrontational. We mustn't ask for favours. And we must show a kind of deference which many will interpret as servility.
I have had excellent FAO's and I can say if you have a good rapport with your superiors you are as safe here as in a developed nation. NOte that we almost always get a contract to sign, and our employers usually respect such contracts (because they are approved by authorities). Our CHinese colleagues often are hired ad hoc, without a contract, and they dare not even ask how high their salary is going to be. THey also know that if they inform their boss about their intention of leaving, their employer is likely to dock part or all of their salary. That's why many CHinese are tight-lipped and why staff loyalty is not very high in China. Private employers are still sort of a novelty here - until fairly recently most had lifetime employment opportunities in the state organism.