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Alec
Joined: 15 Nov 2004
Posts: 11
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 Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 2:25 pm Post subject: loads of negativity to recruiters so how then??????? |
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Hi all,
I have been researching the boards here for a decent recruiter and all I seem to find is 99.99% of them being panned along with all the rip-off horror stories etc. So taking heed and all the advice from those already doing it in Taiwan................
Perhaps some pertinent replies for finding a job at an elementary school would be appreciated without using a recruiter or spending a month's salary trying to find a job after landing?
I have 18 months experience in Asia teaching + TEFL and BA so where would you advise I look for a position? I'm not into making some langauge school owner richer at my expense unless it was the only thing available!!!!! But all I seem to find is the same old rubbish advertised, basically 6 hours a day doing whatever they have for me today!
Or is it not even possible to work for a government or private 'proper' school without a teaching certificate in Taiwan?
Many thanks for any advice would be appreciated rather than just slating recruiters please without offering realistic alternatives for a non-resident teacher already in Taiwan.
Regards and eyes wide open to your 'this is the way' replies.......................
Alec |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 3:46 pm Post subject: Re: loads of negativity to recruiters so how then??????? |
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| Alec wrote: |
| I have been researching the boards here for a decent recruiter and all I seem to find is 99.99% of them being panned along with all the rip-off horror stories etc. |
There is only one regular poster who really advises against recruiters per se, but he has never really explained his reasons for this.
Most people suggest that recruiters aren't all bad, and that you just need to exercise caution.
| Alec wrote: |
| Perhaps some pertinent replies for finding a job at an elementary school would be appreciated without using a recruiter or spending a month's salary trying to find a job after landing? |
Good luck! Aristotle has never supported anything he has said in the past, and I doubt that he will start now.
The fact is that there is no reason that you should avoid all recruiters just because there are some out there that should be avoided. I have recommended Dewey in the past and I will recommend them again. For information about recruiters worth avoiding I suggest that you check out the Blacklist at www.buxiban.com
| Alec wrote: |
| Or is it not even possible to work for a government or private 'proper' school without a teaching certificate in Taiwan? |
It is not legally possible for you to work for a government school without a teaching certificate, and even then only certain schools are included within the MOE's current initiative to get foreign teachers into schools in rural areas. Be very wary about job offers at government schools as the majority are not legal positions.
You can work within private 'proper' schools without a teaching qualification, but competition will be tough without one.
| Alec wrote: |
| Many thanks for any advice would be appreciated rather than just slating recruiters please without offering realistic alternatives for a non-resident teacher already in Taiwan. |
My advice to you if you don't have teaching qualifications is to go for a buxiban. The fact that the boss may be making money off of your back shouldn't really concern you provided that he is paying you well and allowing you to do the job that he employed you to do. |
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Sheep-Goats
Joined: 16 Apr 2004
Posts: 527
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| Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 8:12 pm Post subject: Re: loads of negativity to recruiters so how then??????? |
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| Alec wrote: |
Or is it not even possible to work for a government or private 'proper' school without a teaching certificate in Taiwan?
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Basically not, it seems. Although I did have a nice correspondance with a private school (no teaching qaul here) they had filled their positions already and basically said I was a week late in the application process. There's always a chance someone'll turn up and be totally unsuitable, though (or fail the HIV screen or whatever), so who knows.
With your qualifications it'll probably be language school work or nothing. I'm in the same boat, so I'm not being condescending here. The good news is that I had job offers after two days of sending emails -- so it shouldn't take you even a full month to find work, especially in August.
As far as the process goes, I got a cell number with a random Taiwanese person's help (there are a lot of them in hostels or hotels this time of year, it seems) and did the ol' "email and call to see if they got it, then ask them to please think it over and say I'll wait for their response" thing. |
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Ilanian
Joined: 08 Mar 2005
Posts: 21
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| Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 12:39 am Post subject: |
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If I was going to write a how-to book about ESL in Asia, it would only have one sentence. I may as well write it now.
Just f'in do it. Move to Asia and make it happen, it's easy.
That's two sentences, maybe I should double my fee. With 18 months experience in Asia I would have thought you would already know that much. |
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BigMooseJohn
Joined: 27 Jul 2004
Posts: 16
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| Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2005 2:42 am Post subject: Agents |
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I have found Supreme-see [url]www.teach101.com[/url] to be honest.
The lady who runs the show, Jurene, tries hard, and never abandans you.
She also speaks good English(lived in NZ) |
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Alec
Joined: 15 Nov 2004
Posts: 11
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| Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 3:43 am Post subject: |
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Thank you all for your advice. I have had a look at Buxiban and see that John Dewey appears to be a highly decorated servant!!! Anyone know anything about this outfit ?
Also what should I be aiming at as a salary etc?
Many thanks
Alec |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 11:40 am Post subject: |
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| Alec wrote: |
| Thank you all for your advice. I have had a look at Buxiban and see that John Dewey appears to be a highly decorated servant!!! Anyone know anything about this outfit ? |
As a part of that site, I guess that I should answer this question.
Dewey gets a high rating because he consistently provides a level of service that results in client satisfaction. I have no doubt that there may be some dissatisfied clients out there somewhere, but from the evidence at hand such complaints are unlikely to be for serious issues.
The company has experience and is available to answer questions. It is a recruitment company that has been endorsed by a well known and respected foreigner on another forum here in Taiwan for some years.
I have yet to hear of a negative comment about their services, but there are plenty of positive ones.
The contact that I have had with the guy in charge suggests to me that they are legitimate and that they just want to make money doing business in an ethical way.
Having said all of this, you should take the normal precautions to ensure that the deal you are promised is the deal that you get.
| Alec wrote: |
| Also what should I be aiming at as a salary etc? |
Personally I would recommend an hourly rate of pay. If you have no experience nor teaching qualifications then NTD550 and up is probably the starting rate that you should be going for. For monthly salary the minimum would be NTD55,000 and up for a 25 hour week, but you should try and get about NTD60,000 at least.
If you have something to offer the school then you can negotiate a higher rate of pay. If you don't then you will need to start at the bottom and work your way to the top.
Be wary of any position that offers you considerably more than this as there will be a reason that they are offering that high wage, and that reason may not be compatible with your needs. |
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Alec
Joined: 15 Nov 2004
Posts: 11
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| Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 1:21 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks Clark,
After looking around a few places I was gauging around 60,000 TWD (especially if no accommodation isprovided and with my experience) I'm glad you mentioned the 25 hours a week because that's the absolute maximum I'm prepared to do with the age group I enjoy teaching with!!
I contacted the mentioned agency and had a reply within 10 minutes which is promising. I'll let everyone know what transpires good or bad!!
Thank you for the guidance.
Alec |
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Aristotle
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 1388
Location: Taiwan
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| Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 9:08 am Post subject: |
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The biggest and most important reason that people on Taiwan avoid recruiters is that so many that got a job through recruiters never get paid for their work.
Don't use a recruiter or work for chain schools if you can avoid it.
Those warnings are there for a reason. Many recruiters will simply change their names to avoid be held accountable for their illegal and illicit activities.
It is usually the uninitiated newbie or those with a criminal background that can't get a job any other way that use recruiters.
There is no such thing as a legal recruiter on Taiwan. The occupational government on Taiwan does not issue business licenses for job placement agencies.
They must get a license (few if any recruiters do) in an approved business type then do business outside of their license parameters.
It is illegal for most non Chinese to work in a location not listed on the ARC and work permit (ie the recruiters place of business).
The laws are for the most part irrelevant so long as they parties involved are Chinese and pay the required bribes and kickbacks to the corrupt government officials of the occupational Chinese government on Taiwan.
Non Chinese can not be recruiters as non Chinese are prohibited by the Chinese government from entirely owning business on Taiwan. It may be possible for non Chinese that have permanent residency to act as recruiters but they do so without sanction or protection putting all their clients in jeopardy.
Recruiters are just another criminal business in the R.O.C. ( Republic of Criminals). They operate under the protection of corrupt local authorities so long as they pay the required bribes and kickbacks to government officials.
See IACC!
Even if you are one of the lucky ones who do get paid and not deported for attempting to get paid, you will be working for a much lower salary than your peers.
The ROC cronies will tell you that recruiters are a necessary evil but that is because it is their job is to protect the corrupt society that is modern Taiwan.
Recruiters are not necessary to find a job on Taiwan and the jobs they will find you are the bottom of the barrel.
There is no such thing as a good recruiter on Taiwan!!
Welcome to Taiwan!
A.
Last edited by Aristotle on Wed Jun 22, 2005 7:15 am; edited 1 time in total |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 11:44 am Post subject: |
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| Aristotle wrote: |
| The biggest and most important reason that people on Taiwan avoid recruiters is that so many that got a job through recruiters never get paid for their work. |
Crap! There are some bad recruiters out there, sure. But then there are some pretty crappy foreign teachers out there also. Just because some foreign teachers are crappy doesn't mean that all of them are, or do you believe that they are? I mean this is essentially what you are saying. You are making a broad generalization about a group of people based solely upon your personal bias. If all recruiters rip off people then please provide evidence that this is the case. If it were true then I am sure that there would teachers only too willing to spill the beans - so where are they?
People avoid recruiters for one of two reasons:
1. They decide they don't need a recruiter - which they generally don't.
2. They get put off by the sorts of irresponsible comments by the likes of the Aristotles of this world who make ridiculous generalizations and never support these claims.
| Aristotle wrote: |
| Don't use a recruiter or work for chain schools if you can avoid it. |
Ridiculous. Feel free to work through a recruiter if you want, just be wise about it. Ask questions, do research, check the facts. That is what you would do for most such situations so why should dealing with recruiters be any different.
As for not working at chain schools - well why not? You always say this Aristotle but you have never once given a single reason why.
The fact is that chain schools are a great fit for new arrivals in Taiwan. They prepare everything for you, offer fully legal work, guarantee you hours, you get paid what they say they will pay you and on time, you get training, you get a curriculum to work off which can be great if you have never taught before, you get support, you get everything you need. The only downside - relatively low rate of starting pay, which increases over time and is more than made up for by the free training provided and the fact that you have a curriculum to work off and have very little preparation time.
Another question - Assuming that what you claim had some validity then how should people find work? Why don't you actually post something helpful and suggest some quality independant schools rather than posting the same old rheoteric that has little to no validity in the current market.
| Aristotle wrote: |
| Those warnings are there for a reason. |
What warnings? You are behind the times Aristotle. You are the only one who issues 'warnings' and none of them are worth anything as they are poorly researched, based upon opinion but no facts, and are never supported by you.
| Aristotle wrote: |
| Many recruiters will simply change their names to avoid be held accountable for their illegal and illicit activities. |
Sure bad ones would, and that is why Alex has taken the time to research and seek recommendations. Dewey has been around for a while and has not changed it's name. Despite this there are no legitimate complaints about the company that I can find.
Schools can be just as guilty of what you suggest as recruiters can. Take Little Forest in Kaohsiung. Arguably one of the worst schools on the island, and it has changed it's name about five times in the last three years.
| Aristotle wrote: |
| It is usually the uninitiated newbie or those with a criminal background that can't get a job any other way that use recruiters. |
Crap! Experienced teachers use recruiters too when they want to pick up some extra hours or if there is a position being offered that they are interested in.
Of course it is true that recruiters would largely deal with newbies, but that is only because recruiters so heavily promote themselves and are the most obvious facet of the ESL market in any country. This does not make those who choose to use a recruiter naieve!
| Aristotle wrote: |
| There is no such thing as a legal recruiter on Taiwan. The occupational government on Taiwan does not issue business licenses for job placement agencies. |
Yes there are legal recruiters. There is a whole body of legislation based upon recruitment companies specifically related to the employment of foreign workers - be they blue or white collar workers. Do some research Aristotle or you just make yourself look silly.
People interested in this particular legislation will find an English version over at www.buxiban.com
| Aristotle wrote: |
| It is illegal for most non Chinese to work in a location not listed on the ARC and work permit (ie the recruiters place of business). |
It's funny to see that even Aristotle is now pointing out the illegalities of work in such a way that seems to suggest that those working illegally are at a disadvantage. Funny considering the fact that he has always been, and is the last of a dwindling crowd, of people who actually believe that teachers are better off working illegally here in Taiwan.
| Aristotle wrote: |
| Non Chinese can not be recruiters as non Chinese are prohibited by the Chinese government from entirely owning business on Taiwan. It may be possible for non Chinese that have permanent residency to act as recruiters but they do so without sanction or protection putting all their clients in jeopardy. |
While this may be true if you look at the foreigners who are involved with recruiting, it is not actually factual in a legal sense.
Foreigners can become fully legal recruiters quite easily it is just that most of them don't. Most of them do recruitment work as a sideline to teaching. This does not mean that they cannot attain the legal right to be a recruiter and it is pretty naieve of you Aristotle to suggest that they can't. Once again you need to do some research on the subject.
| Aristotle wrote: |
| Even if you are one of the lucky ones who do get paid on not deported for attempting to get paid you will be working for a much lower salary than your peers. |
That is not true as a whole either. There are some schools that pay some pretty crummy wages regardless of whether you go through a recruiter or go direct. Most of the schools that I am familiar with offer the same salary to teachers whether that teacher came to the school directly or through a recruiter.
Once again Aristotle you will need to provide some evidence to support your claim if you want people to pay attention to it.
| Aristotle wrote: |
| Recruiters are not necessary to find a job on Taiwan and the jobs they will find you are the bottom of the barrel. |
I have never once seen anyone ever suggest that a recruiter was necessary. Just because they are not necessary doesn't mean that they can't be useful. There are plenty of teachers out there who were placed with recruiters and are entirely happy with their deals. If the jobs are the bottom of the barrel then that would become evident and a teacher who had done any research would spot this and say no.
| Aristotle wrote: |
| There is no such thing as a good recruiter on Taiwan!! |
That's a stupid generalization no matter what color you write it in nor what size font your use! |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 11:48 am Post subject: |
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Alec
Joined: 15 Nov 2004
Posts: 11
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| Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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As an update, I have received the standard format/procedure for a post in Taiwan via the agent and I must admit I am starting to feel there is little difference in arriving and finding a position yourself.
Firstly they cannot secure a position via a telephone interview (or it is extremely rare) and a teaching demonstration is also required for any position that is offered. I would have to travel to Taiwan at my expense and if I didn't get it then how is it any different to just doing it yourself anyway?
There are a number of agents in other countries in Asia who will certainly secure you a position without any of that. So that is food for thought for me as to the benefits of using an agent. I was hoping to secure a position and apply myself for a work permit, Visa etc before travelling to Taiwan- via a letter from the school and supplying whatever else they requested which now looks unrealistic. Again very different from the way it is possible elsewhere.
I have requested they look for me and see what turns up, but would appreciate a few names of the main chains (Clark I think you mentioned it), as some of the benefits sound attractive e.g. working from a set/planned lesson plan etc already written for you. This would be a refreshing change from what I'm used to!! Certainly until I was more familiar with a new country and finding a position that really appeals.
Thanks Alec |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 1:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Alec wrote: |
| I am starting to feel there is little difference in arriving and finding a position yourself. |
There isn't.
The value of an agent can be in introducing work to you when you arrive. I generally recommend that people contact schools and agents, make a time for interviews when you arrive, visit schools and choose where you want to work, whether it be with an agent job or otherwise.
Don't feel the need to restrict yourself.
| Alec wrote: |
| Firstly they cannot secure a position via a telephone interview (or it is extremely rare) and a teaching demonstration is also required for any position that is offered. |
Personally, this is a plus for this recruitment company in my book.
A dodgy recruitment company would promise you a position and then either revoke that position in favor of a less favorable one after you arrive, or just drop you like a hot cake if you weren't able to be placed. Most agents will make promises to you as they want you to go with them so that they can collect money for placing you.
The information that Dewey has given you is sensible and honest in my opinion, and I don't think that you should walk away from the offer yet. It is clear that they are professional in their desire for teachers rather than just a warm body with a white face, and it seems that the schools they recruit for feel the same way if they request a demo class. This is all good.
| Alec wrote: |
| I was hoping to secure a position and apply myself for a work permit, Visa etc before travelling to Taiwan- via a letter from the school and supplying whatever else they requested which now looks unrealistic. Again very different from the way it is possible elsewhere. |
Alec, no one who knew what they were talking about, not even Aristotle, would recommend that you secure a job with anyone before you arrive, be that with a school or a recruiter. It is most certainly not in your best interests to do so.
All of what you suggest about working everything out before you arrive is possible here in Taiwan, but in reality very few schools will offer you a confirmed position without first meeting you, and those that do should be avoided.
Think about it for a minute. The school has never met you. All they know about you is from what you have told them in your CV and on the phone in a telephone interview. Any school, or any employer for that matter, that would higher a new employee without first meeting them, wouldn't appear to have much respect for itself. A face to face meeting is fundmental, particularly for work such as teaching where personality and presentation count for a lot.
From your side of the coin, it would be unwise to accept and committ to a position before you have a chance to check things out. Would you accept a job site unseen, with a company you have never heard of back home, and then travel to the other side of the country to take that job without first visiting the employer? I would hope that you wouldn't as it would be a sure fire way to end up in an unhappy job.
Why do you want to try and secure the job upfront?
If it is for some sort of security, well there won't be any. Even if you have a signed contract with the school, if they deem you unsuitable when you arrive in Taiwan then they will cut you loose. They won't just keep you for a year based upon the ideal that you have a contract with them.
If it is for legal reasons, arriving on the appropriate visa etc. Well, the system here has been built around a certain way of doing things. The great majority of teachers arrive on a visitors visa, be a visitor, and then change over to a resident visa once they find a job. This is the accepted method here, and the way that the majority of schools and recruiters work.
If it is for benefits such as airport pickup and free initial accomodation, then again I think you are looking in the wrong places. A school (or recruiter) that has trouble employing people locally due to a bad name here, will offer these incentives to secure teachers from overseas. These teachers sign up, and arrive in Taiwan before they realize why it is that this particular school was offering something that no others did.
By far your best bet is not to committ to any job before you arrive. Maybe you would like to outline why you wanted to do this, and get some feedback about this.
| Alec wrote: |
| I have requested they look for me and see what turns up, |
That's the way.
Let them know that you will be coming on a certain date and let them know what you want. Tell them that you will meet them when you arrive to go over any suitable job possibilities they may have for you. Let them also know that you want to keep your options open till after you arrive.
| Alec wrote: |
| but would appreciate a few names of the main chains (Clark I think you mentioned it), as some of the benefits sound attractive e.g. working from a set/planned lesson plan etc already written for you. |
In order of my preference:
Kids classes:
1. Joy English School
2. Kojen
3. Hess
The rest: Sesame Street, Kid Castle, jumpstart, Happy Marian, Gloria, Kate, Giraffe
Adult classes:
1. Davids
2. Elite
The rest: Williams, Wall Street, Global Village, Gram
You can google all of those names or contact them through the school listings at www.buxiban.com |
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martinphipps
Joined: 01 Dec 2004
Posts: 55
Location: Taiwan
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| Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 8:30 am Post subject: |
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| Aristotle wrote: |
| It is illegal for most non Chinese to work in a location not listed on the ARC and work permit. A. |
The laws were changed back in January of last year. Nowadays, the ARC entitles you to work anywhere. Even when I originally got my work permit back in 2003, it didn't specifically say I had to work where I was working: it didn't even say I had to teach English! Presumably I could have gone to work anywhere and did anything. Of course, I would still have had to pay income tax. What changed was that, starting in January of 2004, an employer could no longer cancel your ARC. If that's the case, there would be NOTHING preventing you from working somewhere else, although the government would want you to show that you still paid taxes for the work you did. I know: I had my ARC "cancelled" and left the country to go to Hong Kong and they told me "under the current law your ARC is still valid until you cancel it yourself". Going to Hong Kong was a waste of time and money. Meanwhile, I was free to work where I wanted and apply for a new work permit and ARC to reflect where I was now working. Go to http://www.tealit.com for more details.
Martin |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 2:59 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Martin,
I am not sure what your source is on all of this, but what you state in your post is not exactly correct. I am assuming that your post concerns the situation in Taiwan.
| martinphipps wrote: |
| The laws were changed back in January of last year. Nowadays, the ARC entitles you to work anywhere. |
No it doesn't.
The Chinese name of your employer is named on your ARC. You cannot work at any other location expect for the registered business address of that employer.
In the case of a chain school, each branch has its own registered business name. This name will be on the schools certificate of registration which will be on a wall in the school. If the employer name on your ARC doesn't match this name then you are working illegally.
This applies to recruiters too. Some recruiters will tell you that you can get the ARC through them and then work out in a school. This is wrong. If you are caught working at any school with an ARC with a recruiters name on it then you will be penalized for working illegally.
The law is very clear on all of this.
| martinphipps wrote: |
| Even when I originally got my work permit back in 2003, it didn't specifically say I had to work where I was working: it didn't even say I had to teach English! Presumably I could have gone to work anywhere and did anything. |
The work permit is a letter written entirely in Chinese, with the exception of the foreign teachers name. This document serves no useful purpose other than being essential in the process of obtaining a resident visa to remain and work in Taiwan.
The work permit does state the registered business name of the employer, and this registered business name only applies to one place of employ. Therefore you can only work for the employer stated on the work permit.
What would be the point of the work permit system if you could indeed work anywhere you wanted after obtaining a work permit? Again, the above is a fundamental condition that is stated very clearly in the legislation.
| martinphipps wrote: |
| What changed was that, starting in January of 2004, an employer could no longer cancel your ARC. |
This is incorrect also.
Employers have never had the right to cancel a teachers ARC.
Employers can request to have the work permit cancelled, which in turn invalidates the resident visa, which in turn invalidates the ARC. This may sound like splitting hairs, but it is an important distinction to make.
The ARC by itself means nothing. The whole process is like a stack of cards that rests on the work permit. Without the work permit the whole stack falls down.
| martinphipps wrote: |
| If that's the case, there would be NOTHING preventing you from working somewhere else |
Nothing but the law!
You cannot just work where you want to in Taiwan. You can only work for the employer named on your ARC.
| martinphipps wrote: |
| I know: I had my ARC "cancelled" and left the country to go to Hong Kong and they told me "under the current law your ARC is still valid until you cancel it yourself". |
Either you misunderstood or you were given some really bad advice. Either way, there is no point further perpetuating the myth.
The fact is that the ARC remains valid so long as your resident visa remains valid. You just need to update your ARC each year and get a new 'Entry-Exit' stamp in your passport. The resident visa remains valid as long as you have a work permit to remain here.
People don't generally cancel ARC's be they schools or individuals, as the ARC doesn't mean anything by itself. Schools will request for your work permit to be revoked.
That site is operated by a recruitment company and is riddled with inaccuracies. You might want to quote the information on that site that backs up your claims!
Sorry if my post comes across as offensive, but I just hate misinformation. |
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