Job Discussion Forums

[Ryumicko]

Hey all!
This is my first post, how exciting! Im planning to be in Japan by my 20th birthday (about 9 months i think). Many other reasons aside, the main reason for going is to learn Japanese. I have already studied Japanese for two years (ni nen kan benkyou sh-ita)(?) and have decided that i have a knack for it, and more importantly that i greatly enjoy it.
In fact, after my stint at teaching english in Japan, i intend to the same thing in France, or Mexico, or Morocco, or...(insert place here). While im in all the respective places, im going to learn the languages. Anyway, my point is that im concerned about how long it will take me to become at least somewhat fluent in Japanese. Will it be manageable on a WHV time frame?

Is there anyone out there who was in a situation similar to mine? How long did it take you to learn japanese?

Any help much appreciated.
Cheers!

Mick.

[Synne]

I'd say your main concern will be money.

If you can support yourself financially to do nothing but study and converse with friends at bars or over dinner then your Japanese should improve greatly over the course of a year.

If you will have to work to support yourself then you might fall into the workers slum where between working, commuting, and eating you find very little time/energy to do or want to do anything else.

[PAULH]

I can only speak for myself and it depends on your goals, how mcuh Japanese you want to learn, how much time you have and the size of your wallet.

I went from zero japanese to Level 2 of the japanese Language Proficiency Test in 3 years. Level 2 is about 800 Kanji and 5,000 vocabulary. A mid-intermediate level.

The JLPT blurb says you need about 600 hours of study for level 2 and 900 for Level 1. In practical terms if you studied one hour a day every days, it would take you 18-24 months to reach level 2. Then you have all the idioms. colloquialisms. slang, honorifics, street language and local dialects.

How fluent do you want to get and what do you want to be able to do with the language? Working at a conversation school you wont get much chance to speak Japanese and an immersion environment you will be totally out of your depth for the first year. Japanese is a much harder language to learn than a romance language and expect to take twice as long to become fluent in Japanese as it does to learn German. japanese is not impossible but its bl-oody hard work to learn to speak read and write it well. Most japanese here dont expect you to master the language anyway and are amazed when you do.


Im nowhere near fluent, am conversationally competent ( i.e. can read most Kanji on TV subtitles hold a conversation on most topics, can follow meetings at work conducted in japanese, can talk over the telephone no problem). Took me about 5 years to reach that level.


Best idea is to aim for the JLPT tests starting from Level 4 and work your way up the levels. the language schools here prepare foreign students for the JLPT.

PS the website here has a blocker that blocks out swear words. Things like s-h-i-t-a get picked up as curse words on the blocker. use underlines or hyphens when using Japanese verbs.

[Ryumicko]

$$ should not be a problem.

As for Japanese im only really going for a smooth conversational starting vocabulary.

[Ryumicko]

Im a bit worried now..will it really take that long to establish respectable conversational japanese?

And i reread those two replies. What your saying is that if im working as a teacher i will find it very hard to learn Japanese?

An additional concern that i have always had is whether(s?) or not im going to be able to get work teaching with only a TESOL certificate and a heap of work experience.

I know i can get into the country on a WHV, so in that regard having no degree is not a problem.

So now its seems that i may have to deal with working really hard (not adverse to this mind you) and consequently not having the opportunity to learn more Japanese.

[Glenski]

You have no degree (kinda hard to imagine one at 19 or 20 years of age for most people, anyway). That means no work visa.

You mentioned a working holiday visa. Are you American or some other nationality? If you are American, you cannot get a WHV. If you DO qualify for one (http://www.mofa.go.jp/j_info/visit/w_holiday/index.html), you can only work for a maximum of 12-18 months (depending on your nationality).

That is not very long. If you plan to work full-time during that period, you will probably land an eikaiwa job, which usually puts people to work from noon to 9pm, and which may even not give you 2 consecutive days for a weekend. Being a newbie teacher means you have to learn something about your own lessons, even if the eikaiwa has them preplanned for you. That leaves very little time to study Japanese. Add to that the fact that your coworkers will be fellow foreigners, you are not supposed to use Japanese in the classroom, and you will strongly feel the urge to explore the country, and you have even less time, inclination, and reason to study Japanese.

Here is what someone wrote a year ago about learning Japanese from scratch (not quite your situation, but still applicable).
I have been in Japan for a little less than six months. I am currently working at NOVA's Multimedia Center in Osaka.

I admire you for having such high goals, but there are some things you should consider. Paul and Glenski did an excellent job of pointing these things out to you. I want to offer you my own perspective in addition to reiterating what has already been said.

Paul and Glenski are right when they say that when you get home from work, you will likely be quite tired and in the mood for a beer or for just going to bed. When you get into this routine, it is quite easy to put off studying until "tomorrow." When you work at an eikaiwa with a regular schedule, every day is essentially the same. The same number of classes, the same working hours, the same low-level English conversations, and the same tired or resigned demeanor when it's time for you to punch out and go home. "Tomorrow" will keep coming and going and before you know it, you will have been here for three or four months and will still be vowing to study "tomorrow" even though you're frustrated and disappointed. So if you really want to study Japanese, you have to break this inertia somehow and force yourself to study.

What does this mean?

This means you choose to study Japanese even though your friends are out boozing up and singing karaoke. I'm not saying don't have fun; I'm saying you have to prioritize.

This means you choose to study Japanese if you are lucky enough to get a free period at work. Most of the other teachers spend their 40-50 minutes of free time gossipping or cracking jokes about their students or what happened when they went to the bar the night before.

Prepare to be isolated from your coworkers and other foreign peers. They may ostracize you for being "high on Japan" or "hardcore" or "wannabe Japanese" or whatever. And because you're living in a foreign country, you're going to want to rely on the "support network" they provide, even if they are disingenuous, for the simple fact that they are foreigners too. So you may not devote as much time to studying as you would ideally like to or should simply because you're lonely and dealing with culture shock.

I came to Japan with only some basic knowledge of grammar (only the present and past tenses), all the hiragana/katakana, and about 75-100 kanji. Now I'm up to about 500 kanji and am able to hold a fairly interactive conversation in Japanese. I can do more than order food at a restaurant or ask when the last train leaves. I would estimate that my Japanese ability places me somewhat higher than Level 3 (though not close to Level 2 at all). But I didn't get there by hanging out with my friends after work four nights a week or watching the BBC or CNN in my room and renting English videos.

I got it by isolating myself and enduring occasional ridicule from other teachers whose Japanese ability is limited to "biiru kudasai." I got it by going to bars and restaurants that foreigners usually don't go to and striking up conversations with the bartenders and the regulars. I got it by taking the handbills people distribute on the street and trying to understand the kanji written on them even though I obviously could care less about the product they were advertising. I got it by watching Japanese television and only being able to pick up isolated words and phrases. I got it by riding the subway around Osaka just so I could get free listening practice as the subway approached each stop. I got it by striking up random conversations with the Japanese staff members at my job and asking them what various kanji mean.

Just three nights ago, I decided to venture into a tiny izakaya by myself for the first time. The menu was entirely in Japanese, with the kanji written in cursive strokes, thus making them even more difficult to read. The waitress and the cook were obviously very shocked to see me, and I am confident their English ability was limited to "hello" and "thank you." But I looked at that menu and was able to recognize a few items, and I was even able to ask the waitress what various entrees contained. And I was able to successfully order something I liked, much to my relief as well as that of the waitress and the cook. To me, that was more than enough validation for me to realize that I am indeed progressing with this language and that the approach I have to it is working.

I now consider myself to be fairly self-sufficient with this language. I can make out the gist of unfamiliar conversations, I can understand the most important points of any official correspondence I receive, I can tell when other customers in a restaurant are talking about me, and I am able to look up the meanings of various unfamiliar kanji without knowing their hiragana translations of them. But I won't lie--it hasn't been easy.

Japanese is not a language that you can approach in a lukewarm fashion. And you won't learn the language if you don't USE the language. You won't use Japanese if you're hanging out with your fellow English teachers after work. You won't use Japanese if you're reading an English newspaper and watching English movies. You won't use Japanese if you're drinking at the bar with your coworkers. You really have to force yourself to stick with it.

If you have never undertaken foreign language study before, you may be unfamiliar with how languages are acquired. You may retain a lot of new information easily at first. But then there comes a time when your brain will feel "full" and your Japanese may actually regress a bit. But you have to be patient with yourself and keep trying before you're able to retain more information. And then you'll plateau again...So be prepared.

My goal is not to become a translator. I would, however, like to pass Level 2 of the JLPT this year. Your experience in Japan would be MUCH more rewarding if you have some language ability to assist you. The Japanese will treat you quite differently too.

Before you come to Japan, I would recommend that you at least learn the hiragana and katakana. They are fairly easy to pick up (I personally had more difficulty with the katakana, as several of the characters look alike) and will allow you to write down every word in Japanese. Romaji (that is, the letters you see in this post) is rarely used here. So at least learn the hira/kata scripts first.

And be realistic with your goals too. I want to speak fluently too. But I'm patient. Walk before you can run. And don't be too hard on yourself when you find that this language just doesn't "click" with you sometimes. Even I have my "dekiru/dekinai" (can do/can't do) days.


One more point. You wrote:

[PAULH]

[6810]

Just to follow up on what's already been said.

1. If you want to learn Japanese (well), you have to use it. All the time. Like everyone has said, it's your responsibility to put yourself in Japanese situations (I have a Japanese family and work in a Japanese speaking environment, and while not anywhere near perfect yet, my Japanese had progressed significantly). The average eikaiwa dude/dudette tends to live in an English speaking bubble.

2. Forget about what anyone says about magically learning it from TV or the radio. These things can help but only in a broader context of study and use.

3. You have to be very pro-active about study. Life and almost any other distraction will do unbelievable things to distract you.

4. Be very sure about your motivation to learn Japanese. If you are learning it for a reason (in my case to be able to communicate with my family and do better than just "getting by" at work), keep that reason at the fore. If you don't know why you are learning it, you will not learn.

5. Finally, if you want to study kanji you have to study. All the time. There is no other choice.

** I don't care what anyone says about usefulness of kanji in conversation, when studying kanji there is a vocabulary feedback loop whereby the more kanji you learn, the more you can read, the more new words you learn, the more nuances of words you learn and thus the more words you can speak and more efficiently and consciously use. Plus, it makes everyday survival even easier (reading maps, instructions, recipes, web pages, pamphlets etc). For me, learning Japanese through living has been integral to my "success". And kanji are a part of everyday life in Japan.

ciao!

[guest of Japan]

I'm in agreement with the above posters. It takes a lot of time, effort, motivation and determination. I've met people who were extremely gifted learners of Japanese. I'm not one of them.

[Akula the shark]

Took me just over 4 years to go from zero to JPLT level 1 which I passed last year.
I put in hundreds upon hundreds of hours of study to get to this level.
Good luck to you, but most people underestimate just how much effort is required to really become good at a language. Sounds like you might be one of these people.

[Henry_Cowell]

[PAULH]

[Zzonkmiles]

The post Glenski quoted in colored letters was something I wrote several months ago.

For me, I came to Japan two years ago with only a very basic vocabulary and very little knowledge of grammar. Basically, my Japanese was at a fairly superficial level. However, as my quoted post says, after coming to Japan, I really worked hard and isolated myself and forced myself to use this language. Anyway, last year I took level 2 of the JLPT. I barely missed passing the test, but I'll take it again and expect to pass this year.

Seriously, there is no miracle solution for learning Japanese quickly. There are several strategies that can help you study and remember words, but really, time and effort are the real meat and potatoes of it all. For example, I am able to understand lots of new grammar, but it takes a lot of exposure and attempts with it for me to be able to use and understand it comfortably. And that takes time. Maybe you can go from zero Japanese to 1-kyu in one year. But most of us don't. And frankly, most of us CAN'T, especially if we're living the eikaiwa lifestyle. Fortunately, some of us, myself included, were able to escape the English-only worlds of NOVA, AEON, ECC, etc. and are exposed to the language at work every day. That helps A LOT.

[rai]

I don't understand; do you have a degree? If you want to learn Japanese I suggest you come over on a Japanese language program with your college, and do a homestay. Everyone I know with great Japanese did that, and I wish I had. Now I teach in a jr. high school, so I hear Japanese all the time, which helps. If you can handle the complete lack of privacy that comes with a homestay, I'd recommend it. You have no choice but to speak Japanese then. The conversation school route is really better suited for people who plan on exploring the gaijin bars...

[Henry_Cowell]

I have a feeling that Ryumicko won't be posting on this thread again.