Job Discussion Forums

[missionsonmind]

I have somewhat searched the posts ...but haven't found answers to my questions so please I apologize if this is a repeat.

What do you think about a job that the recruiter told you 4000rmb but on the internet you see the same job posted and paying 8000rmb with a 3000rmb end of the year bonus - both jobs offer shared accomodations and all meals paid.

The only possible difference is the posting on the internet states TEFL/TESL certificate which I do not posses.

I questioned about this early on but was told the job posting was old and due to SARS scare - lots of teachers left. The only problem with that is this posting I second and third postings were within the last three months.

Your input and insight is greatly appreciated!

I am so grateful to have run across this site ...I have learned so much just by reading!

My contract is so vague...I was feeling so uncomfortable! Now I am armed with great questions to ask my recruiter.

Many Thanks!
Missionsminded

[tofuman]

MM,

First thing I'd do is lose the "missionary" schtck. You came to China to work and your contract probably forbids "religious" activity inappropriate for an FT, whatever that means.

Chances are that your recruiter is giving you half of what your salary should be. He may even be getting 10,000 to serve you up as a "living sacrifice," while you console yourself that through suffering you must enter the kingdom of God.

In your "missionary" guide, those who used what sometimes appear as questionable business ethics are commended. I would say your recruiter is profitting nicely and you are getting a good lesson why it is often a good idea to avoid recruiters.

[missionsonmind]

How narrow thinking....that I am "religious" ....you see the mission on my mind could be lots of things! not religion....not meaning to offend but just straight talking

Thanks for the comment though! I am not sure you addressed the fact that I don't have the TEFL/TESL certificate ...does that count for 1/2 the salary? I although have the credit hours for a degree...because I switched majors I don't have a degree...

I guess I am asking if those two things equate to 4000rmb of the offered salary. Also I forgot to add $1000usd for flight home.

Thank you again for the comment and I hope I haven't scared anyone off with my rather pointed comment

[tofuman]

If you have no degree and no TESOL, you should change that before you come to China. One of the few ways that China has of keeping incompetent, immature, and unqualified individuals out of the country is to have minimum expectations to assure some level of competency.

Obviously a degree is no proof of maturity, but wouldn't you like to have something to offer?

You may find a job with your lack of credentials, but it could be a job with a flaky company that is going to "rip you off."

[Girl Scout]

Dump the recruiter and apply for the job direct. It does not sound like you have commited yourself to anything yet. You have to choose a school that is a good fit for you. There are a lot of jobs in China. Pick one that makes you feel comfortable. After all, you are about to go half way around the world to a totally alien place for at least one year.

[missionsonmind]

just fyi...I have taught school for three years and taught seminars and taught and trained most of my career so the teaching and the creativity and the language is NO problem...my experience equals more than several degrees or certificates....so I am not at all challenged by your remarks or scared into not coming because I know I will do well.....

My question was just surrounding the salary equal to certificate. In America a degree makes a big difference in salary however many times based on your experience you could get the same salary or even higher but getting you in the door or even interviewed oftentimes depended on your degree. There are certain vocations that only degreed people are allowed to work based on the liability of those positions. It is becoming apparent to me that China is different.

Thank you Girl Scout for your input also....its appreciated!

[tofuman]

"You may find a job with your lack of credentials, but it could be a job with a flaky company that is going to "rip you off."

Unless you have something unique to offer, which would be rare without a degree, you may have difficulty getting with a reputable, trustworthy firm that you can depend on to pay you, reimburse your air fair, provide decent housing, etc.

By people with unique qualifications, I refer to individuals competent in specialized fields such as health care, law, business, etc. These individuals have an understanding of specialized vocabulary and are often of greater interest to reputable schools.

The Chinese do not understand that a person without a degree can be quite successful in the West; consequently, some attach an inordinate amount of importance to the degree. Neither a master's degree, nor a bachelor's is required to teach oral English to students who would rather be hairdressers.

You should be thinking of the quality of the students with whom you will be spending your time. Kids are screened before high school and the better students go to better schools. If you land in one of the schools with students who have been side tracked because of their intellectual shortcomings, you could have a difficult time. Think babysitter for obnoxious brats rather than teacher.

Luckily, my student's are well behaved and respectful, but that is not always the case.

I'd like to know what kind of school you taught in without a degree.

[go_ABs]

tofuman - I'm sure I'm not alone in appreciating the experience, honesty and wisdom you bring to these boards. But you seem to've jumped to conclusions about this person.

She (I'm just taking a guess here) said she had educated others for more than three years - don't you think that would count as something unique? She'd probably be miles better than a qualified-to-the-hilt newby straight out of college. And I bet that's the angle she's pushing in order to find a job.

She's taught at a school, and she doesn't have a degree. But there are many types of school. For all we know, she's a 40 year old electrician who has been doing the same job for twenty years, and in the last three starting teaching night classes at the local community college. 'School' often has a variety of meanings, as I'm sure teaching in China has taught you.

missionsonmind - I agree with Girl Scout. Dump the recruiter. Or challenge them up front and say that you found the recent ad offering 8,000, but you can understand that they want the TESOL cert., so 7,000 would be reasonable.

What you've said about the States rings true here also, in my experience. While the degree and TESOL cert are no assurance of quality, they help you get a foot in the door.

In my opinion, the difference between what you make for doing the same job as someone more qualified than yourself should be big, but not as big as you're talking about.

Cheers,
And sorry if you're a guy after all.

[missionsonmind]

I feel like the princess who was just rescued from the fire breathing dragon.....I owe you.... prince go_ABs ....what a gentleman and a scholar! Yes its true I taught in a private institution where they had to meet a quota of degreed teachers for accreditation. In the business world I conduct training seminars all the time. I do believe I have something to offer I love the Chinese and more than that I love teenagers. I hope to inspire these young people to do great things in their life. I suppose someone who loves teens is hard to find ....in America it certianly is...that generation is thought of nothing more than obnoixus and troublesome. But I am looking forward to a group of young people who have much to offer the world and maybe nobody tells them that enough! I suppose in my sincerity I mirror some of the gents whose posts I read .....about wanting to teach in China for a reason much deeper than what goes in your pocket.
Again I am grateful for the site and any and all comments whether they are kind or tough...I love them both because I was taught you better be able to give account for what you belive or you don't believe...so a little roughing up never hurt me but I am beaming at the chivalry of this gentleman...go_ABs. You are correct...female I am through and through!

[tofuman]

Thanks ABS, I'm glad that my rantings are appreciated by someone.

Apparently I'm not making myself clear. My point is that even though MM may be well qualified for the job by experience and maturity, reputable Chinese institutions are impressed by academic credentials.

It has been gone over and over again that a degree is required by "Law" in most cases for someone to have a VisaZ. She may find a dodgy English mill to offer her a job, but how will she be treated? Will she be working 35 hours a week and dancing in a rubber ducky suit for 3000Y/monthly if she's lucky enough to actually be paid.

MM,

I thought I loved the Chinese people before I came here. Especially the demure ones with the silky smooth skin. I can assure you that the Chinese in China, at least in the outlying provinces, are nothing like the sophisticated, well educated, professional Chinese that I was used to seeing in the States. The average man on the street here would better be represented by the Filipino from the barrio.

I wish someone would have prepared me for the fraud, the deceit, the "brutality," the treachery that I encountered when I got here. It is really inconceivable. Your love for teenagers is commendable; however, remember that 90% of your students will not understand English well enough to have a simple conversation with you.

Even our beloved talkdoc, (OBM) a highly qualifed academic ran into a situation that was intolerable. Someone without a degree, with "higher"motives and "love" for the Chinese is a sitting duck for unscrupulous opportunistic, xenophobic "school" proprietors.

Be careful MM. This is not an after church potluck.

[missionsonmind]

Be careful MM. This is not an after church potluck.....

ok I am laughing and rolling on the floor after that one! Honestly are you sure you are not supposed to be a stand up comedian????

Why you continually want to put me in that lot I will not understand??? However I am again very appreciative of your desire to look out for me....it always warms me to know these gents on here really do care...sniff sniff.....but I assure you I am not naive as it may appear - I did complete 4+ years of college - got the hours just not the degree...too many changes ....but somehow that piece of paper is precious.

I now know if I am suspicious of something I have a place to come and have a sounding board so to speak....no one here at this board has a hidden agenda....that is pretty clear!

I guess what I am saying is ....I appreciate the banter! Thank you for looking out for me.....I don't have the experience you have and thankfully I am not bitter like you may have become which is so sad....I suppose when your expectation is continually not met it turns sour ....that is natural. I am coming to learn as well as teach so my expectation is not high.

I agree the Chinese in America are different,however I have met a chap or two unwilling to become "american" and these fellow say what they think and they certainly don't hold back. I am thinking you may have picked up a little of that ....hee hee. But I would much rather have that then some sweet talking two faced back stabing american any day of the week!

I wish someone would have prepared me for the fraud, the deceit, the "brutality," the treachery that I encountered when I got here. It is really inconceivable.

Please do enlighten me.....what makes you say this?

Your love for teenagers is commendable; however, remember that 90% of your students will not understand English well enough to have a simple conversation with you.

I actually and in need of nothing from these teens....I only hope to have the opportunity to give ...inspire ....ignite hope for their future...that is all ...anything beyond that would be unexpected!

Believe me I don't take lightly the task but I would not be going if I didn't think I could handle it! I am not some little twit that rolled out of college yesterday....I am pretty seasoned!

[tofuman]

MM, If you think a native Chinese "speaks his mind" you are really deluded.

If you end up in some hokey "school" out in the boonies with 24 hour security to prevent you from leaving, no heat in the winter, cold water, moronic "students" and the occasional death threat, think about what "bitter" Tofuman said in hope of preventing you from ending up there.

[Roger]

Maybe the real issue is: do people from certain anglophone societies have enough knowledge at their finger tips to understand how education is administered in the rest of the world? Concretely, I mean this evergreen of a question concerning the relevancy of degrees and certs only occurs here all the time because there is a stark lack of understanding among anglophone nationals. Just because several thousand CHinese and Indians enrol at America's top collges and universities every year doesn't mean the rest of the world is going to emulate your hiring practices. I for one would feel that would bring about a downward trend.

The reason why certs are so important is that locals have to pass relevant examinations before they are allowed to teach. Why should FTs be exempted??? I see no reason whatsoever, surely being a native speaker is not enough of a qualification?

What's more, in most countries where I lived or where I teach (now in China), teachers are civil servants who normally show their loyalty to their community through a life time commitment to their school and students. Their experience in teaching is immensely richewr than Mission's experience.

If she insists on teaching in China, then she ought to accept the conditions offered to her; her recruiter is entitled to his cut. I personally doubt the discrepancy alleged in her first post; why would the school advertise AND enlist the help of a recruiter? THis is unusual! Those who rely on an agent normally don't place any adverts.

The recruiters don't take such a big cut; they still take a comfortable chunk, to be sure, but not half of a teacher's wages.
If she is offered a job at half the remuneration the school is offering to a SUITABLY DEGREED applicant, then I guess the recruiter is instrumental in getting her a job in spite of her status as an underqualified candidate.
The school pays the agent a lower commission, she gets a lower salary, - everybody is in it for their own advantage.

[missionsonmind]

Well see there you have it....that is exactly what I thought...I don't deserve the higher salary because I don't have the credentials and therefore I can rest....no one is trying to rip me off....get in there ...make the best of it ...be the best teacher they ever had ....have excellent references for the next job to see the degree issue can be waived because I have been successful at my current post and inflluenced a group of young teenagers to hunger after knowledge and learning so they can make a difference in their world.

I understand I am coming at a disadvantage so I am grateful for the opportunity and will not spoil it for my fellow teachers...rather I will maintain an utmost professional stance and serve the chinese well.

Thank you!

And oh yes tofuman ....if oh my goodness....I was ever in that scenario you described....I would certainly have remembered your searing words and felt a "I told you so" would be in order....thank you again for looking after me! I am most grateful for the words of wisdom!

[tofuman]

Roger may be right. He may not be right. But you accept it as "gospel" because that is what you want to believe. I assumed the best about people and their motives here until I discovered that it is much closer to reality to assume the worst. I hope your experience will be different.

You are mistaken to think that your hard work will be appreciated and you will be rewarded for your diligence. If you work for an organization that in all likelihood is going to lie in order to get your credentials, or put you in a position of working here illegally, it is almost certain that their lack of ethical foundations will apply to their treatment of you, not only as an employee, but as a human being.

I hope your sojourn here will be a good one and that you will never understand my point of view.


Good luck