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Tieren
Joined: 03 Nov 2004
Posts: 4
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 Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 9:23 am Post subject: International Teacher Recruiters |
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| Does anyone know how one can get in contact with English teacher recruiters located overseas? |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 3:23 am Post subject: |
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If you are looking for companies based overseas that recruit teachers to teach in China, then there are plenty of them. They advertise on this and other boards and there is a list of recruiters over at www.buxiban.com It is not a full list, but the most comprehensive that I am aware of.
If you are going to be dealing through a recruiter I would probably recommend that you go for a local outfit with a good reputation, rather than a company based overseas. New Times International and Buckland are two local recruiters who have pretty good reputations.
Although I like the idea of dealing with a foreign recruiter based upon the concept that they would likely have a better idea of what you the teacher needs, I haven't been overly impressed by the companies that I have personally had contact with. It is nice to be able to communicate easily, but I find that many of the overseas outfits don't have the level of knowledge that I believe they should have, and I also note the fact that it would be next to impossible for them to solve problems that may arise.
If you are going to go with a recruiter, my advice is to go with a local firm with a solid reputation. |
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tw
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
Posts: 3898
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| Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 3:37 am Post subject: |
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| clark.w.griswald wrote: |
If you are going to be dealing through a recruiter I would probably recommend that you go for a local outfit with a good reputation, rather than a company based overseas.
Although I like the idea of dealing with a foreign recruiter based upon the concept that they would likely have a better idea of what you the teacher needs...It is nice to be able to communicate easily, but I find that many of the overseas outfits don't have the level of knowledge that I believe they should have, and I also note the fact that it would be next to impossible for them to solve problems that may arise.
If you are going to go with a recruiter, my advice is to go with a local firm with a solid reputation. |
Very good point.
Nonetheless, here is a recruiter based in Vancouver (Canada) who is an immigrant from Beijing (hometown is in Shandong): www.teachingenglishinchina.com
The guy's name is Steve and his English is excellent. |
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KES
Joined: 17 Nov 2004
Posts: 722
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| Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 5:12 am Post subject: |
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| Why do you need a recruiter? |
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Mideatoo
Joined: 19 Jul 2005
Posts: 424
Location: ...IF YOU SAY SO...
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| Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 5:39 am Post subject: |
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| Reading experiences on this website and others��� 85% of FT had problem(s) and some very big problem(s) with recruiters�......... The remaining 15% were lucky.... |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2005 3:35 am Post subject: |
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| KES wrote: |
| Why do you need a recruiter? |
You don't.
Having said that however, there are certain number of teachers who would never consider just arriving in China and finding a position once they arrive. China is a big place, and if you don't speak the language then that makes it ten times bigger. If there were no recruiters then it is likely that these people could all end up in the big cities, and end up in positions with language centers. Many of these are not legal positions as they do not provide visas etc.
Of course there are a number of recruiters that should be avoided at all costs. However just because someones business is teacher recruiting, does not mean that they will automatically rip you off. Of course dealing with a third party if you can deal direct should be avoided as it multiplies the chances of misunderstandings occuring. But the reality is that some very good positions are not really available directly as the schools that offer those positions don't always advertise them. They may choose to deal through a recruiter as this makes the process easy for them too.
So for those who are already here, those who speak the language, or those that are a bit more adventurous, recruiters are not really a very feasible option.
Those who feel the need to take advantage of the services offered by a recruiter shouldn't be afraid to do so. Just make sure that you follow these few simple rules:
1. Research the recruiter that you are dealing with.
2. If possible find out the name of the school that you are to be placed at and research that school. If the recruiter won't give you the name of the school then at least research the town, city, and/or province that the school is in. This way you will possibly find the names of some of the best and worst schools which will prepare you for when you arrive.
3. Ask the recruiter lots of questions. If you are not happy with the responses then find another recruiter.
4. Ask to see a copy of the contract with the school and make sure that this is the actual contract that you will be asked to sign when you arrive.
5. Ask for contact details for some present and past teachers who have both used the recruiters service; and have worked at the school in which you are to be placed. Make sure you contact these teachers as on occasion you may be given dead links.
6. Ensure that payment is made directly to you and not through the recruiter. This removes the opportunity of the recruiter to skim off the top of your wages. There is a very good recruiter in China who does collect your wages for you and seems to handle them responsibly, but the above should apply in most other cases.
7. Don't sign anything before you arrive (unless you want to arrive on a Z visa - which may or may not be an advantage). I don't see any need for you to sign anything with the recruiter. If you want your visa arranged for your arrival then you will need to sign with the school - but you should be wary of signing up for a school that you have never visited.
Maybe others can add to this list. |
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Mideatoo
Joined: 19 Jul 2005
Posts: 424
Location: ...IF YOU SAY SO...
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| Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2005 11:41 am Post subject: |
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| clark.w.griswald wrote: |
1. Research the recruiter that you are dealing with. |
VIRTUALLY IMPOSSIBLE
| clark.w.griswald wrote: |
2. If possible find out the name of the school that you are to be placed at and research that school... |
THAT WILL NEVER HAPPEN, AND IF IT DOES HAPPEN "THEY" WILL SEND YOU TO ANOHTER SCHOOL ANYWAY...
| clark.w.griswald wrote: |
3. Ask the recruiter lots of questions. |
HE WILL TELL YOU WHAT YOU WANT TO EAR...
| clark.w.griswald wrote: |
4. Ask to see a copy of the contract with the school and make sure that this is the actual contract that you will be asked to sign when you arrive. |
HOW DO YOU KNOW IF IT IS A "REAL" ONE...
 HAHAHA HA |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 2:36 am Post subject: |
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I see posts like yours all the time Mideatoo - a lot of negativity but no real solution. We are all aware that there are recruiters out there that are best avoided, but they are not all like that. It's very easy to make the sort of post that you just made 'that won't work' etc. but it's not very helpful. So I would like to know how you would recommend that teachers looking for work in China find good jobs here.
My suggestions above were offered as a guide for those who choose to deal with a recruiter, but they would be equally applicable to people going with a school directly. If the recruiter that you are dealing with does not come through with your requests as per above then you can choose whether or not you want to deal with that recruiter.
In answer to your comments please find the following:
| Mideatoo wrote: |
| clark.w.griswald wrote: |
1. Research the recruiter that you are dealing with. |
VIRTUALLY IMPOSSIBLE |
I disagree. There is more information online now about schools and recruiters in China than there has ever been. I don't understand how you could suggest that researching a recruiter is virtually impossible. All you need is a computer!
| Mideatoo wrote: |
| clark.w.griswald wrote: |
2. If possible find out the name of the school that you are to be placed at and research that school... |
THAT WILL NEVER HAPPEN, AND IF IT DOES HAPPEN "THEY" WILL SEND YOU TO ANOHTER SCHOOL ANYWAY... |
Strange! It does happen so I don't know how you can suggest that it will never happen. I included the words 'if possible' above as I acknowledge that not every recruiter will give you this information, but then that is the point in asking for it.
In some cases the recruiter doesn't know where they are going to place you until you arrive. In those cases the recruiter would not be able to answer your question and this may indicate that it may be best to avoid that particular recruiter. This is the whole point of the question.
In other cases the recruiter does know where you will be placed but doesn't want to tell you for fear that you will go directly to the school and cut them out of the deal. This indicates to me that the recruiter doesn't have a very strong relationship with the school and is another reason why this is an important question to ask.
Finally, in some cases the recruiter will be very open about the school, you can then contact the school, and then you can be confident that all is well. This is how you work the system to find the best position possible and best protect yourself.
| Mideatoo wrote: |
| clark.w.griswald wrote: |
3. Ask the recruiter lots of questions. |
HE WILL TELL YOU WHAT YOU WANT TO EAR... |
You seem to have little faith in your fellow foreigner if you think that they are all stupid enough to just believe everything that they are told. It is commonsense that the more questions you ask, the better an idea you will get about the recruiter you are dealing with. If the recruiter is not answering your questions, or is giving you answers that seem unrealistic or to be just 'what you want to hear' then you can establish this upfront before you have hopped on a plane to China. This is the whole point of asking questions - to establish the credibility of the recruiter.
Again, it is only by doing this that you can really make an informed decision.
| Mideatoo wrote: |
| clark.w.griswald wrote: |
4. Ask to see a copy of the contract with the school and make sure that this is the actual contract that you will be asked to sign when you arrive. |
HOW DO YOU KNOW IF IT IS A "REAL" ONE... |
That's the whole point. You can never know with any certainty, but that's why you ask. It's a good little test.
If the everything else looks good, and you have confidence in the recruiter then this question can be effective as it means that the recruiter has to answer directly. If you get here and it turns out that the contract is in fact the same then that confirms that the recruiter was legit.
If however you get here and the contract is not the same, then that means that either the recruiter lied to you, or is incompetent, or both. This gives you the perfect out as you can then say to the recruiter that the contract is not what you were told it was, and therefore you are not signing it. You can then walk away from that position free of any commitment, safe in the knowledge that you have probably saved yourself a lot of anguish as you would have to wonder what else may turn out to be different from what you were told before you came.
As I have stated repeatedly there are no guarantees. If you do all of your homework and follow some simple guidelines then you have nothing to fear, as although things may not turn out as expected, at least you have best prepared yourself for this eventuality. The alternative of just taking a recruiter or a school at their word is bound to get you into trouble.
Research is key, and knowledge is power! |
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tw
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
Posts: 3898
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| Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 4:21 am Post subject: |
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| clark.w.griswald wrote: |
| Mideatoo wrote: |
| clark.w.griswald wrote: |
1. Research the recruiter that you are dealing with. |
VIRTUALLY IMPOSSIBLE |
I disagree. There is more information online now about schools and recruiters in China than there has ever been. I don't understand how you could suggest that researching a recruiter is virtually impossible. All you need is a computer! |
I think Mideatoo's point was that there are probably thousands of recruiters in China, and given the fact that anyone who knows some English and has some inside connection with a couple schools can call himself/herself a recruiter, it'd be impossible to do a background check on Joe Average. Let's also not forget the fact that many recruiters use false identities.
Last edited by tw on Mon Aug 08, 2005 7:20 am; edited 2 times in total |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 7:11 am Post subject: |
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| tw wrote: |
| I think Mideatoo's point was that there are probably thousands of recruiters in China, and given the fact that anyone who knows some English and has some inside connection with a couple school can call himself/herself a recruiter, it'd be impossible to do background check on Joe Average. Let's also not forget the fact that many recruiters use false identities. |
OK, fair enough. I am of course talking about the major players, not every individual who decides to call themselves a recruiter. I would say though that there are probably only about 20-30 recruiters that often place ads on places such as Daves, not counting of course those one off summer programs and the like. It is not difficult to find information about these recruiters, these are the ones that I think people here are most likely to deal with, and these are the ones that I am talking about. |
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Mideatoo
Joined: 19 Jul 2005
Posts: 424
Location: ...IF YOU SAY SO...
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| Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 7:37 am Post subject: |
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| I should have been more explicit. You can read behind my sarcastic post "NEVER TO USE A RECRUITER". |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 10:34 am Post subject: |
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| Mideatoo wrote: |
| I should have been more explicit. You can read behind my sarcastic post "NEVER TO USE A RECRUITER". |
Why not? |
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izzy272
Joined: 16 Jul 2004
Posts: 29
Location: Shanghai
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| Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 6:01 am Post subject: |
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Recruiters can be very underhanded. Some will give you information only in shades of grey others will sugar coat thinks and most will just out and out lie to you.
I you would like some first hand info please Im me
I do not want to name names out in the open |
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virago
Joined: 06 Jun 2004
Posts: 151
Location: Approved Chinese Government Censor
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| Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 6:07 am Post subject: |
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I was approached by an international recruitment company to set up a system for foreign teachers, educators etc in China but after researching the recruitment market and universities/schools that require these services I suggested that we could not provide the quality standards that they required.
The recruitment market is in extreme disarray in China, especially for FT's. One the worst of all the industries I have seen in my teaching and business in China.
Recruitment is seen as a commodity and quantity style, not of quality. We know what the human rights issues are like here. The Chinese do not consider the life of people higher than other countries. If it's now or back in the Ming Dynasty there is no difference. There is always some other person to replace someone.
Quite different from the western thing that 'people are assets' and are strategic importance to the company and society as a whole. There has been numerous reports of human resources producing 30-35% higher profits from companies with strong human resources and recruitment policies. The Chinese just don't get this (anyway most of them).
Obviously it's changing but only through better business practices brought in to the country from foreign countries or from Chinese companies wanting to become an international company. |
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