|
Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Students and Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
The Great Wall of Whiner
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Posts: 4946
Location: Blabbing
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Chris Smith
Joined: 01 Dec 2004
Posts: 86
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Miyazaki
Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 635
Location: My Father's Yacht
|
 Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 11:08 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
Reports say there were several English teachers from both Canada and America who were arrested - some locals too.
Too much foreign garbage EFL'ing on Taiwan.
It's really too bad. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Fortigurn
Joined: 29 Oct 2003
Posts: 390
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 2:27 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Get rid of them all. We don't need freaks like this in Taiwan. In fact we don't need freaks like this anywhere. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ferfichkin
Joined: 07 Jul 2005
Posts: 140
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 3:10 am Post subject: |
|
|
That's gotta be him, how many Mathieu Forand's could there be in Taipei? I saw that episode of English Teachers a few weeks ago and there were four guys in it, one of whom was smoking pot right on camera. It was the guy in the top right hand corner of the website listed by Chris Smith. Mathieu is obviously a French name and of the four guys in the show he is the only one who really looks French, the other three had blondish hair. It must be him.
Geez, I hope they don't execute him. I know when you're in a foreign country you have to obey their laws, but still, I really hope they don't give him the death penalty. How do they know he was smuggling, they didn't catch him at the airport? Does anyone know about that? Also, does anyone know how much drugs he was caught with? Are we talking about a couple of grams or a couple of pounds? That's the thing about these black and white, zero tolerance laws, they fail to take into account the severity of the offence, (ie) someone with a couple of grams of cocaine is just as guilty as someone with a couple of pounds. Now in the latter case it is obvious that the person intends to distribute the drug on a large scale, while in the former it could be that he just had a few grams to sell to his friends at a party, however, with these black and white laws, they are both labelled "drug dealers", and as far as I could tell from the CBC article, both face the same penalties. You can form your own opinions as to the legitimacy of that policy, personally I think it's ridiculous, and I just really hope that they have some mercy on him.
I also wonder how effective these zero tolerance drug policies are in Taiwan? Does anyone know? I know that in the States they are completely ineffective. The United States has the highest rate of incarceration for non-violent drug offences in the western world and yet they have the highest rate of per capita drug use. They did a study comparing maijuana use in the Netherlands and in America, and the Dutch, who can use the drug legally, have lower rates of useage in all age categories. The study confirmed that amongst the youth, the Dutch had half the number of users than in America. (I got that info from the Nader website, I'm not sure how accurate it is, you can check it out yourself, I believe it.) Same thing with murder, the United States is one of the few remaining industrialized countries with the death penalty, and yet they have the highest per capita murder rate in the western world. Those zero tolerance policies don't seem to work in America, I'm wondering if they work any better in Taiwan?
I don't really know what I'm trying to say, I guess it's obvious that he's guilty of breaking Taiwanese laws, I don't know, I just hope they take it easy on him, that's all.
fich |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 3:42 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Ferfichkin wrote: |
T
I don't really know what I'm trying to say, I guess it's obvious that he's guilty of breaking Taiwanese laws, I don't know, I just hope they take it easy on him, that's all.
fich |
Frefichkin,
I know what you are trying to say, but just like in Singapore and in Malaysia you can be caught with a couple of grams and still receive the death penalty. Thats the law in those countries. whether its one gram or one kilo, its still drug smuggling and its still illegal. You break a country's laws you expect to pay the price. No one will give you special treatment becuase you are white and come from a first world country.
There is an Australian woman serving a 20 year sentence in Bali even though (it appears) she was set up as a mule and unwittingly smuggled 4 kilos of marijuana into Indonesia. Even if you are innocent you cant expect any mercy in an Asian court for drugs. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ferfichkin
Joined: 07 Jul 2005
Posts: 140
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 4:55 am Post subject: |
|
|
Yeah, I'm not saying that he should recieve special treatment because he's white or for any other reason, I'm just saying that I hope they take it easy on him. It wouldn't matter to me if he was black or Chinese or whatever, I would still hope they would take it easy on him. I'm not questioning Taiwan's right to form and enforce their own laws, I'm just saying that I hope they show mercy.
As far as the smuggling thing goes, I don't know anything about that, it said he was accused of smuggling in the CBC article but it seems to me he could have just as easily bought the drugs in Taiwan. Although I guess if they're accusing him of smuggling they must have some kind of evidence or else they would just charge him with possession and trafficking. If they have the death penalty for all drug offences there isn't much point in lying about the smuggling since the trafficking will produce the same sentence.
In terms of what I wrote about America, that was an honest question. I guess the theory is that the death penalty will disuade people from using drugs in Taiwan. What I was saying is that conservative criminal legislation has been ineffective in the United States and I was just wondering how effective it has proven in Taiwan.
fich |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Aristotle
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 1388
Location: Taiwan
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 4:57 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
T
I don't really know what I'm trying to say, I guess it's obvious that he's guilty of breaking Taiwanese laws, I don't know, I just hope they take it easy on him, that's all.
fich |
They were caught red handed, smuggling drugs into Taiwan and obviously were distributing narcotics without the sanction of the occupational government or their cronies. They will most be given a very harsh sentence.
The backlash is that teachers who believe themselves to be legally working on Taiwan and registered with the occupational authorities will be scrutinized. Those found to be in the proverbial gray area will probably be harassed or deported as a face saving measure.
The only surprise in this case is the location.
Welcome to Taiwan!
A. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 5:54 am Post subject: |
|
|
Ferfichkin
FWIW they have the death penalty in Japan too, but it never stopped anyone committing murders here. The only difference in japan is that they inform the family aftre the sentence is carried out, its done in secret and the convict doesnt know till a couple of hours before when the sentence will be carried out. they all live in fear that the night will be the last. You dont have the death penalty for drugs here, but those foreigners in prison probably think that death is a better alternative than what they are going through here.
I dont really know enough about the arguments in the US against capital punishments but I think as a deterrent it has never really stopped anyone from killing for fear of it, unless it happens in a certain state where capital punishment is still in force e.g. Texas
Taiwan is an island, and really the only way in for most people is by plane, and I think youd have to be pretty stupid to think you could smuggle it through an airport or send it in the mail. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 6:18 am Post subject: |
|
|
I don't really feel sorry for the guy as he knew what he was doing and the repercussions if he was caught, but it is most definitely a sad situation. Imagine. He is a foreign teacher just like the rest of us, and possibly in his twenties. It seems certain that he will be spending the best years of his life behind bars in a prison in Taiwan. And all for what? That is a pretty sobering thought.
I really doubt that he will even face the death penalty. I think that most western governments tend to put on a bit of pressure diplomatically and basically say 'Incarcerate him for as long as you like, but it would be appreciated if he didn't face the death penalty.' Even his lawyer is expecting him to get 10 to 15 years. So thats a release date of 2015 at the earliest.
| Aristotle wrote: |
| They were caught red handed, smuggling drugs into Taiwan and obviously were distributing narcotics without the sanction of the occupational government or their cronies. |
That is quite a serious accusation Aristotle, and I think that it is an extremely dangerous one to make unless it is in fact correct. Just remember that public opinion can sway criminal cases. On what authority do you have it that the guy was 'smuggling' and 'distributing', and not merely in possession? I think it is extremely important that you clarify this. If it your opinion then state that as being so. If it is fact then state the facts.
| Aristotle wrote: |
| They will most be given a very harsh sentence. |
On what scale? I don't agree that they will be treated harshly just because they happen to be foreigners. In fact, if their nationality has any bearing upon their punishment then I tend to think that they will in fact get a more lenient sentence than they would have if they were Taiwan nationals. It seems clear that they will still get an extremely harsh sentence by most western standards, but not as harsh as they could get.
Local Taiwanese have been executed for drugs offences in the past as well as being incarcerated for life. Does anyone know of any statistics for foreigners in jail for these offences, or if any foreigners have been executed in Taiwan in recent years?
| Aristotle wrote: |
The backlash is that teachers who believe themselves to be legally working on Taiwan and registered with the occupational authorities will be scrutinized. Those found to be in the proverbial gray area will probably be harassed or deported as a face saving measure.
The only surprise in this case is the location. |
More baseless scaremongering from Aristotle. You just know that this is one of those stories that Aristotle hangs out for!
According to this article there have been 67 executions in Taiwan in the five year period between 1999-2003. This compares to 385 in the US, and a staggering 6,687 in China for the same period of time. I didn't really read much of the site, but I assume that it is an anti-death penalty site, so I assume that the figures are overstated if anything.
This article is quite an interesting one. It discusses the process of executions in Taiwan which may not be everyone's cup of tea, but it did have some interesting statistics:
| Quote: |
| According to statistics from the ministry, 157 inmates have been executed since 1996. Most of these were for convictions on charges such as murder, kidnapping, robbing, rape, blackmail and drug dealing. The same statistics show that all 157 of the executed inmates were males, 64 percent had criminal records and 42 percent of them were aged between 30 and 40. |
The article was dated August 9, 2004. So that would appear to reflect 157 executions over the 18 year period dating back to 1996. That is about 9 per year, which is even less than the earlier figures quoted above. Interestingly 64 percent of these prisioners had a criminal history. This may indicate that repeat offenders may be considered for the death penalty more than first time offenders, or could possibly just reflect the fact that these individuals had progressed from less serious crimes through to more serious crimes that resulted in their execution.
Another interesting article, this one from the Taipei Times. Aristotle will like this one as it mentions some of his favorite topics 'gangsters' and 'corruption'. A point of interest in the article is the suggestion that there had not been any executions in the eight month period prior to the article apparently based upon a reluctance by the authorities to administer executions nowadays. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Miyazaki
Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 635
Location: My Father's Yacht
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 8:15 am Post subject: |
|
|
First, he won't get the death penalty. So just stop throwing that around right now. Canada has a pretty damn good diplomatic relationship with Tawian and I can guarantee you he won't be executed.
Second, I doubt he even does that 10-15 years.
Who knows, maybe he'll get shipped back to Canada in end after only doing a short stint in jail.
Now, if he was Thai, Vietnamese or Filipino he'd be in much more serious trouuble. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
teacha
Joined: 25 Aug 2005
Posts: 186
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 4:01 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Was it on a coffee table, an unattended bag(s) on the floor, dropped on the floor as they raided, or in his pockets? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 5:24 am Post subject: |
|
|
| teacha wrote: |
| Was it on a coffee table, an unattended bag(s) on the floor, dropped on the floor as they raided, or in his pockets? |
Suggesting that he was fitted up by corrupt officials here....?
Have you ever considered that he is guilty? Or doesn't your bias enable you to consider this? Why is it so unreasonable to assume that a foreigner was caught doing drugs? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
teacha
Joined: 25 Aug 2005
Posts: 186
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 5:54 am Post subject: |
|
|
| clark.w.griswald wrote: |
| teacha wrote: |
| Was it on a coffee table, an unattended bag(s) on the floor, dropped on the floor as they raided, or in his pockets? |
Suggesting that he was fitted up by corrupt officials here....?
Have you ever considered that he is guilty? Or doesn't your bias enable you to consider this? Why is it so unreasonable to assume that a foreigner was caught doing drugs? |
Well primarily due to the lack of details abouthow they were discovered. And the policies on drugs in Taiwan. I have read numerous articles about whole clubs being arrested and held until test results came back because drugs were at the club they were in. Also this guy made a documentary that may or may not have pleased the gov't and they may or may not held it against him. In America if a person you are with is caught with certain drugs, say you two are in a car, a house, whatever, you may not even know them, you may have hitch iked, been a friend of a friend etc....You are charged if the cops come. A few months a go I was invited to a party, went with poeple I know, it turned out to be less than 15 people there and some were nodding off from shooting up and and some were smoking, some were underage drinking...I bolted! Actually I could have been charged for giving htem alcohol because I was older.....That happens in that town at parties......So it's just a discretionary gray area that i mistrust in general. Yes you need to be aware of all the places and people you put yourself in/with so I blame him for having a party in the 1st place.....but what is the extent of his guilt is my question. It's not a bad question to ask is it? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 8:30 am Post subject: |
|
|
| teacha wrote: |
| It's not a bad question to ask is it? |
You are entitled to ask any questions you want. If you phrase these as suggesting that there may be something untoward about the case then you may get questioned as to why you think that to be the case. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
This page is maintained by the one and only Dave Sperling.
Contact Dave's ESL Cafe
Copyright © 2018 Dave Sperling. All Rights Reserved.
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
