Job Discussion Forums

[eng]

Hi! i know it would have been better if i had posted this on the teacher forums board but i can't post there as i only registered a few mins ago. this is long, but i'm hoping someone can help me out here. thanks!

I'm teaching my student the difference between "so that" and "and so". Since both can just be shortened to "so", my student had no problem w/ that part of the lesson. What I'm trying to come up w/ now are cases to show her what tenses and modals to use depending on what she wants to say (I usually do this in table/chart form. right now, I'm still in the process of gathering all the info, so things are rather chaotic, but I plan for this all to be simplified before i give it to my student).

So (that):

"formula": A + so that + B

Case 1: an action done/being done in the present (A) with a desired result (B-in the future)

A: in the simple present or present progressive/continuous tense
B: using modals like can, will or might (when uncertainty is involved)

ex: She is eating a lot of vegetables so that she will lose weight. / She eats a lot of vegs so that she will lose weight.

Case 2: to show reasons (B) for habits (A)

A&B: in simple present tense

ex: she brushes her hair 100x every day so that it shines (i'll come up w/ a better example)

Case 3: future actions (A) with results that will take place in the future (B)

A: simple future/future prog
B: using modals such as will/can/might

ex: They will go to bed early tonight so that the can wake up early tom.

Case 4: past actions (B) w/ desired results in the past present or future:

A: simple past/past prog
B: using modals such as would, could, might

ex: we ran all the way so that we wouldn't be late. *
* my student is in an intermediate level so i don't want to get into the "so that i would have had"s , don't want to overwhelm her (i'll just "whelm" her haha). anyway, whatever the case, the modals would still stay the same, right?

now we move on to "and so"

A + and so + B

I. (this actually turns out to be 3 cases, i just broke it down accdg to the tense of A)
A: in the past
B: in the past, present or future

ex: i passed by the store so i was late/am late/will be late.

II.
A: in the present
B: in the past (if there was a consequence due to a habit), the present (habits again) or the future

ex: i walk slowly so i was late yesterday
i walk slowly so i'm always late
i walk slowly so i will be late today/tom...

does this make any sense to you? sometimes when i try to make things easier for my students, i end up going insane from thinking about the possible situations in which to use the language.

[Guy Courchesne]

[eng]

i'm in a different time zone (couldn't be bothered to figure out what time zone was in when i registered so i just stuck w/ gmt) so whiskey on the rocks at this hour for me would be in bad taste! tsk, tsk, drinking before lunch

don't worry, i plan on devoting 2 (3, if need be) sessions to that topic alone and i'll go over it again in review sessions (because it will drive me student---not to mention me-- crazy if we keep at it for too long). i build comprehension & usage activities (games, interviews w/ reporting, relevant conversations, etc.) into the lectures and i combine new topics with old ones so that i have mini-reveiws during each lesson. it helps that i know my student pretty well so i know what activities work for her.

according to berlitz rules, im not supposed to be spending so much time on any one topic...but that's precisely why i hate the rules...ooops...i mean, that's precisely why some of our students don't really learn (i hope HQ personel don't patrol these boards). true, we're told that we should follow the pace of the students....and then we get blamed for our students not progressing as expected.

when i follow the recommended pace, i find that some of my students only get the tip of the iceberg. i don't expect them to get the whole iceberg, but i'd rather they got more than just the pointiest tip of it. when i follow the recommended pace, some of my students just end up memorizing silly dialogues (or dialogs as they like to call them at berlitz). so i rework the material to make things easier for everyone. i bring in additional books, handouts, try new activities (games)....

i find that many of my korean students appreciate tables that explain which tenses to use in what situations...but we still have to do a lot of extension activities for them to really get the hang of things. hence all the reviewing (revising?) and going over old lessons in the context of a new lesson, etc. it takes a while, but learning a language really does take time and i've found this method to be rather effective.

i actually thought of something else:
future + and so + future

the evil queen will lock her in a tower and so the princess will never see the light of day again

with another one of my students, we discussed the difference between

my boss did not sign my vacation permit form so that i couldn't go on vacation (here, boss is an evil, vindictive b*tch who deliberately did not sign my permit form so now i'm stuck at the office)

my boss didn't sign the form and so i couldn't go on vacation (my boss may be nice but it just so happens that she did not sign my vacation request so i'm stuck here...woe is me)

[teacheringreece]

"my boss did not sign my vacation permit form so that i couldn't go on vacation (here, boss is an evil, vindictive b*tch who deliberately did not sign my permit form so now i'm stuck at the office)
me)"

This sentence doesn't make much sense to me. I'd say that we don't normally use "so that" following a negative clause, except if we're correcting something somebody's said, e.g. "I didn't help him so that he'd like me, I did it because I wanted to". Even that doesn't sound great.

[eng]

true. now that i you mention it, i see what you mean.
but it made sense in our class...one of my students is an HR director and we like to talk about a fictitious office with cruel bosses and crazy directors. i think if you hear it in a humorous conversation, instead of reading it in print...it can somehow work. that's the funny thing about conversational language, a lot of things that would never work if written somehow work with the right intonation and in a certain context

i forgot to mention that it was an offshoot of another sentence without a "negative" in it. we were talking about a boss who wanted to stick me with a bunch of students from hell and she cruelly refused to sign the permit slip because she wanted to torture me...so her not signing the slip was supposedly done to intentionally make me suffer....hence the use of "so that"....to show her purpose and intent.

of course, that's all at the fictitious company. my boss is actually very nice and in a few days, i'll be leaving for 4 days of bliss at boracay. tropical paradise, here i come!

[eng]

i guess it would have been clearer if i had written: she deliberately did not (or refused to) sign it so that i would have no choice but to take the class. something like that. but it's really one of those things that work better in conversation

This sentence doesn't make much sense to me. I'd say that we don't normally use "so that" following a negative clause, except if we're correcting something somebody's said, e.g. "I didn't help him so that he'd like me, I did it because I wanted to". Even that doesn't sound great.[/quote]

[Henry_Cowell]

[Cdaniels]

Perhaps this is an Americanism, but I rarely, if ever, say "so that." In writing, I would avoid using the phrase "so that" in any circumstance. There are so many better alternatives. Even slang " 'cause " is more clear. I don't know the class or the level, but maybe you could just say "avoid using the phrase 'so that.'"

Sorry for ruining anyone's fun analyzing this to death, feel free to go on for your own satisfaction!

[Guy Courchesne]

I've noticed that too, about American use of 'that' clauses, or in this case, 'so that'

US Eng. "Say, why the monkey wrench?" "So I can fix my car"
Can Eng...the same or "So that I can fix my car"

Here is a source to make things muddier or clearer, depending on you.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=that

[Henry_Cowell]

[Guy Courchesne]

I done it cause I wants to.

[some waygug-in]

So that's that!

I think "so that" is something that is common in spoken English but not so much in written English.

Perhaps part of the lesson could be to explain some differences between written and spoken language.


And I don't think avoiding "so that" is a solution, but that's my opinion.

I think it's used more as a short answer to "why" questions.

Example: Why did you go downtown so early?
So that I could meet my friend at the bus station.

and also "what for" questions.

What did you break those eggs for?

So that I could make an omelet.

[eng]

i prefer to use "because"...and the funny thing is, my students have no problem using "because". sadly, i had to have this "so that/and so" lesson because it was in the bloody lesson plan. sometimes "doing my job" actually makes my job more difficult!

[quote="Cdaniels"]Perhaps this is an Americanism, but I rarely, if ever, say "so that." In writing, I would avoid using the phrase "so that" in any circumstance. There are so many better alternatives. Even slang " 'cause " is more clear. I don't know the class or the level, but maybe you could just say "avoid using the phrase 'so that.'"

[eng]

thanks for the tip (asking "why"). i only got to read your post now but i actually used that approach in class earlier today.

[eng]

i guess it's one of those things that are clearer when said than when written? when you talk, intonation and stress come into play...when you write things down, it's not always easy to figure out which words should be stressed