Job Discussion Forums

[leeroy]

So following from the "Asian Students!" thread, it seems there is a general feeling that the CELTA course is, sometimes, unrealistic.

I'm glad I did my CELTA. It was very useful, interesting, and gave me a lot of basic groundwork from which to develop my teaching. But there were ways it could have been better. They certainly didn't tell me you'd have to teach Japanese people how to have conversations!

It also didn't mention that sometimes you don't have time to prep - that some students don't like communicating, that 9 (and even 12) hour teaching days can be a reality (man, I won't forget THAT day in a hurry...), etc...

In short, my CELTA taught me how your lessons should be with certain kinds of students in some situations, but it gave a slightly false image of the overall picture of TEFL/TESL.

Assuming that you were in charge of "re-designing" the CELTA, how would it be different?

[Mike_2003]

Every culture, every society, every student even has specialist needs and will perform best under certain circumstances. A course which prepared you for every situation would be as long as life itself. The best lesson you can learn is to always be ready to learn yourself.

[leeroy]

Mike, I thoroughly agree with you - it would be unrealistic to expect something like the CELTA to prepare every teacher for every potential situation!

However, it seemed that my CELTA focused a little too much on one particular approach to teaching (and set of circumstances), when it could take a broader perspective. My CELTA (At IH London) assumed, for example, that all lessons should be communicative.

As some TEFL gurus such as Scot47 have said, this is not always the case! I'm wondering if there are any other aspects of the CELTA which could be improved...

[Sherri]

I did the CELTA course at IH in London in the late 80s. I am not sure what it is like now. I got a lot from the course and even though there were parts of the course which I never use (and now disagree with), most of the course was relevant and useful particularly the lesson planning and classroom management. I agree with Mike 2003, there is simply too much in the field of EFL to teach in the short time they have. They give you the basics, the rest is up to you.

As for the "communicative approach", first realize that there are so many interpretations as to what this actually means. Lots of people (and schools) use it without defining it and it becomes whatever they want it to be. I like the general deifinition in Richards and Rogers which says that:

--learners learn a language through using it to communicate
--authentic and meaningful communication should be the goal of classroom activities
--fluency is an important dimension of communication
--learning is a process of creative construction and involves trial and error

So you can see how vague it is. It is considered "an approach" not a method which means basically that it is more flexible in how it is interpreted.

I think that you will find that if you are hired by a school in Japan, for example they will expect you to teach "communicatively" even if it is not the way the students are used to learning --in the case of Japan, it is usually the grammar-translation method. They can hire a Japanese teacher if they want the language taught that way.

To answer your first question, if I could change the CELTA (as it existed when I did it) I would take the focus off the PPP--do they still do that?-- and put more focus on teaching the 4 skills.

[arioch36]

First I would say that it is unfortunate we are only mentioning CELTA, a kind of presumptuous arrogance that says one is better or more important because it is more well known.

All these cert courses (considering the 4 week course with actual teaching hours the norm) have certain problems. Rarely is the instruction target specific. A large number of teachers go to ....China? Mexico? Japan? Korea? How many of these courses have instructors who have taught there for three to five years? This is what I would want most to change in these courses.

There are many instructors who are not committed teachers. They quickly gave up the teaching hat for the better paying "instructor hat". I know of a "top" CELTA instructor, ie, high up in the hierarchy, who spent one...one year teaching overseas. Now he visits other countries, giving two week classes and lectures. But he is not experienced at teaching students in China. He is not experienced at teaching at all.

Of course a long time ago I actually bothered reading and posting on the job training forum, listening to people like Swindell say CELTA was great, every teacher needs to take it, you can't get jobs without it, etc. listening to the various instructors and those trying to start schools saying why their schools are so important. They didn't want to be bothered by what teachers had to say. The people that dream up "new approaches are not experienced teachers from the field. They have not spent five years in Mexico. They are academians.

True, my cert was 8? years ago, but I doubt if much has changed. I had to leave my MA because it was driving me crazy. I was being taught by prodessors who never really taught, but spent their life at collegew, or I was taught by TA's aspiring to be uni proffs, and their experience teaching involved volunteer work one summer


I disagree with Mike_2003 very much. Mike, if you listen to people who teach in Asia Japan and China, it seems the biggest problems are quite common. Some are;

How do deal with disruptive boys
students who want to "buy" language, and don't want to work
students who don't know how to have a conversation
students who don't know how to organize thought by at least a western notion of coherence
class sizes of large proportions

Hmm, the last part of my post was cut off. Oh well, 'nuf said

[Mike_2003]

Why is that disagreeing with me?

[arioch36]

Sorry, I thought you were saying that the problems of teaching in different places are too varied to ever be dealt with in a cert course?

I think some of them can and should be. I think this is disagreeing with you. Of course, I am reluctant ever to disagree with anyone

[Mike_2003]

The points you made are just SOME problems which are QUITE COMMON in one particular region of the world. Add to that all the other problems which are quite common in other regions of the world and you are still only generalizing but you have probably gone beyond the boundaries of a four-week course.

What's that quote? "Give a man a fish and he can feed himself for a day, teach him how to fish and he can feed himself for a lifetime." Something like this could apply here too.

Maybe there should be an additional unit to the course which could be taken in the country where you end up teaching. This unit could prepare you for country-specific problems.

[Ann]

CELTA is great (from what I've heard of it) but I often get the feeling that it is the Berlitz of TEFL world.
No offense to anyone, but you cannot learn to teach in 4 weeks, nor can you really grasp a concept in 4 weeks without assessment, evaluation, field work, etc. You can have a smattering of a bit here and a bit there which is more realistic for teachers on the go, but not sufficient enough to arm you with EVERYTHING or even SOMETHING you ought to know.
I am skeptical about the CELTA because I probably learn better in a structured university setting--curriculum, field work, research, student-teaching, and all....This takes time.
Anyway, forgive me if I am rambling....its 4am and I need to be in bed.
Night from this corner of the world...

[SueH]

This subject seems to have had cyclical reappearances in my time reading Dave's. If the people commenting are only mentioning CELTA maybe, pace Arioch, that's due to our own (limited) experiences. Certainly that's my situation.

My tutors (both active teachers) never made claim to it being anything other than an introduction and indeed, one of the success criteria if I can paraphrase was 'being aware of how to develop as a teacher'.

The advantage of doing it in the UK certainly (and I can't speak for other places), is that the teaching groups tend to be mixed. Mine included Asian, European and Middle Eastern so at least you get general exposure and some awareness of the problems. Admittedly you don't tend to get those difficult single L1 groups. At one TP doing modals I had a Chinese student out the front to demo an exercise and was told afterwards that I'd been very lucky she came up to the WB to do it. We were certainly introduced to the cultural dimension even if to only a limited extent due to the shortness of the course.

[arioch36]

I guess, in other words, ain't nothing perfect, we have to do the best with what we got? (Not meant in a cynical way). The year is ending again, and again i think back at how many things I could have done differently, better. But my students know I cared, and I tried.


Apologies if I am ever too critical of CELTA. It is a stepping stone. I guess it gets under my skin sometomes when (I don't know the modern slang) , when they proport to be all that and a bag of chips.

[struelle]

[selmo]

Hi , When I looked into doing a tefl cert I was told that the only 2 that were worth taking were CELTA and TESOL. The TESOL I was told was more theory based and the CELTA more material based. I did the TESOL as I am crap at art . I thought it was hard work but I enjoyed it. I would like to know anybodies views on doing a TESOL Diploma . Is it worth while ? I have been teaching 4 years and wonder am I too old to bother with a Diploma at the ripe old age of 33 ? Does it make me eligable for better jobs ? Or should I just be happy with my mediocre standing in the human race and buy another crate of beer?

[Ann]

I would say, "go for it." Research is ESL (or any subject for that matter) is constantly evolving so it won't hurt you to learn something more or different.
As for CELTA justifying its focus on grammar...well!
I don't have anything against the CELTA (so no hidden agendas here). In fact, I was looking into enrolling a couple of years ago, but I chose to do my Masters first. Anyway, my point is that if you're teaching students basic skills then, grammar is the last thing you should be focusing on. Yes, it's important and yes, it's necessary but it's not an obvious part of your lesson. If you are teaching Business English, language mechanisms hold another meaning altogether. It all depends on who you're teaching and what you're preparing them for.
That said, CELTA is a good investment but if you have the time, energy, and resources, I would recommend a program that bases its practice on research and theory. But if you're looking for a quick study--CELTA is great!