Job Discussion Forums

JonnytheMann · Joined: 01 Dec 2004 Posts: 337 Location: USA

Can a foreigner (i.e. me) and an Argentine man enter into a gay civil union in BsAs?

Can I apply for residency if I am in a gay civil union?

carlos-england · Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 3:05 pm Post subject:

Johnny

Welcome to the boards...

Are you already in a relationship with an
Argentine man?

The thing is if you were thinking of moving to
Argentina to find love, I wouldn't recommend
it. If any person who was black, Muslim, Chinese,
Hare Krishna or whatever I could happily say to them that a
move to Argentina would not end up with them getting
a punch in the mouth (or worse...) or any kind of open
hostility.

Homosexuals however are despised by Argentine society
at large, Argentina and most of south America apart from
Brazil is still conservative as far as same sex unions are
concerned, I'm going to be honest though I maybe wrong
but I doubt there are civil unions for gay people and I doubt
very much you would be able to get residency on the back
of a same sex relationship.

Also if you were open about your sexuality there is a huge
chance of getting a good kicking, narrow minded arseholes
are there as they are everywhere else.

If you want to change the wheel. Do it somewhere where the
law will be on your side and respect your position.

Or better still go and live in Brazil.

matttheboy · Joined: 01 Jul 2003 Posts: 854 Location: Valparaiso, Chile

Carlos mate, i don't know what kind of bigots you've been hanging out with in BsAs but the city is very gay friendly and has been for some time now. We've already discussed this on the General Board:

http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/job/viewtopic.php?t=25316&start=15

Buenos Aires is one of the most open-minded Latiin American cities and since devaluation has overtaken Rio as the region's gay capital. There are gay bars, restaurants, clubs, hostels...one of the city's best club nights at Niceto Club, Club 69 is gay friendly and has a transvestite live stage show. And most people who go there are straight (thursday nights btw but it's bloody expensive now, 25 pesos entry, it used to be 10 until the Cromanon tragedy. 2 months shut down and they hike the prices...still it's worth it once in a while).

Government health campaigns specifically target the gay community and yes, Civil Union exists.

Buenos Aires is not San Francisco or Sydney but it isn't Bible Belt US of A either.

That said, i haven't met any openly gay (and by that i mean someone who freely admits to being gay in normal conversation) men here but that's more than likely due to the fact that i'm not gay and don't specifically go to 'gay areas'. And also i don't really pay much attention so unless a guy's a raging queen or snogging another bloke i really wouldn't notice. There are people who i've suspected of being gay, including on of my students, but i wouldn't ask as it's none of my business and what difference would it make anyway?

snielz · Joined: 05 Apr 2005 Posts: 165 Location: Buenos Aires

I have only been here for a few weeks but there does seem to be a sizeable gay community. I have seen some signs of it even though I don�t seek out the gay scene. Also, I was reading that Buenos Aires has a thriving gay community. I would guess that there could be some hostility since the culture is still somewhat mysogynistic, but that is just a guess. Being here only two weeks, I haven�t seen anything of the type and can�t comment firsthand. S�erte.

carlos-england · Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 8:55 pm Post subject:

I don't hang around any bigots Matt... having
grown up in the mono-cultural paradise of a
Merseyside council estate with my first name
I have absolutley no time for racism, homophobia
or any other silly ingrained prejudices also I have fought
more battles against bigotry (racism in my case)
than you ever will. However to tell Johnny that actually he would be OK
in Argentina and being openly gay would be dishonest
of me. Also having lived in South America (like your good self)
and having the pleasure of having over 100 male South American
relatives whose views on the subject are known to me, then I
thought my view on it would carry some weight.

I used to have rows with my exs on this. University
educated ladies who said homosexuality was 'unatural'
and that gay people 'should be shot' and that was not an
extreme stance on the subject by any means from the
local populace, but then again I have heard that opinion
here in the UK also.

To say there isn't homophobia in South American society
is being in denial.

You admit yourself that you haven't met openly gay
people. OK you don't associate in their circles but
then gay people in Argentina know that for a quiet peaceful
life it is better that they kept their sexuality to themselves.

It makes no difference to me at all. I'm straight and my
interest in the subject is neutral though I think everyone
has the right to make lifestyle choices as that they see fit.

However to say that his openly gay lifestyle would be accepted
by the majority of the good people of Buenos Aires is not accepting
the reality of the present climate, say he and his boyfriend got attacked and they went to the police, there gay, they are either British or American, do you think they will get a sympathetic respone? I doubt it very much myself.

Also to get a good view of homosexuality and Argentine
culture why doesn't someone anwser his question about the legalities
of same sex relationships and residency?

carlos-england · Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 9:01 pm Post subject:

Also the biggest gay mardi gras and one of the biggest gay communities
in the world is Sydney, however as anyone who knows
about Australian culture is that an openly gay man
is subject to 'gay bashing' more than anywhere else in the
world.

Openly gay man is fine and safe in somewhere like Kings Cross
(Sydney) however just leave the gay friendly confines of
certain parts of Sydney and go somewhere like Darlinghurst.
The man is going to be attacked, no question about it.

I would say the most similar culture to Argentina is probably
Australia and that they have a colonial frontier view on how
a man should behave, yes they are stuck in a timewarp but that
won't help Johnno when he gets set upon.

carlos-england · Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 9:26 pm Post subject:

http://travelguides.lastminute.ie/sisp/?fx=event&event_id=31844

matttheboy · Joined: 01 Jul 2003 Posts: 854 Location: Valparaiso, Chile

Yeah, but Carlos, your relatives are Peruvian if i'm not mistaken. The culture in Peru and of Peruvians living abroad is completely different to Argentina, and even more different to the island that is Buenos Aires.

There IS a thriving gay scene here and there IS political acceptance of homosexuality and to some extent there IS social acceptance of homosexuality.

I never said that the majority of people would accept a gay lifestyle nor that homophobia isn't rife in Argentina but that's the same everywhere in the world. The type of anglo-saxon violence that results in 'gay bashing' doesn't really occur to the same extent in Latin America. People don't go out specifically looking for fights like in Britain and Australia. Freely admitting you were gay in Buenos Aires might close a few doors but again, this is exactly the same as in Britain, where many gay men, for example, don't reveal their sexuality at work in case they get passed over for promotion...unfortunately, that's the reality.

Freely admitting to being gay is also something that many gay men wouldn't do in Britain, France, Australia or the US. Some feel the need to wear their identity for all to see, many don't and i had gay friends in Paris who i didn't know were gay until it was specifically mentioned. They were happy to admit to being gay but weren't openly gay. There's a difference.

That said, there are openly gay men in Buenos Aires. The transvestites that used to hang around in Palermo Viejo were almost a tourist feature (taxi drivers would always want to take us on a quick tour on the way to bars and clubs in the area, chuckling to themselves at the sight but NOT ever saying that it disgusted them) until a new law came into effect banning solicitation in residential areas and they moved to the Bosques de Palermo. The gay friendly 'straight' Club 69 where i have seen obviously gay men (in the show and normal punters), boutiques in Palermo where it's pretty obvious the men are gay without actually admitting it etc...

And as for gay men in Sydney avoiding certain areas...there are certain areas as a white middle class bloke in my small dorset town that i would avoid at all costs..every city has no go areas for different people...

And if we're doing quick and easy google searches: http://www.thegayguide.com.ar/

JonnytheMann, that site also has info about civil unions and may be able to answer your questions if you write to them directly. Worth a shot anyway.

carlos-england · Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2005 5:13 pm Post subject:

I wrote all this down last night and the damn
computer froze, so I went to see Ricky Hatton
wallop Kostya Tyzsu and now I'm here in a better
mood...

So, first of all I stand corrected on the same sex unions
and rights in Argentina, they are quite liberal and the spouses
of these relationships have the same rights as heterosexual
couples in situations of work and in other factors though you would
need to explore this more thoroughly than I can.

However, I would not recommend living in Argentina and
embracing an 'openly gay' lifestyle. Though Argentina does not
have the 'fight in the kebab shop' mindless violence that you do
in the UK. Argentina is still a very violent society and in my opinion
there are better places to live if you intend to settle somewhere
in a openly gay relationship.

If you are interested in a civil ceremony that for me constitutes
being 'openly gay' as you are part of the legal official machinery so
to speak as 'man and man' and are officially a couple. If thats
not being openly gay about your sexuality then I don't know what
is. I have no problem with that but I would question the wisdom of
a move to Argentina on the back of it.

There are better places to live as a homosexual couple. Thats
all I'm saying.

JonnytheMann · Joined: 01 Dec 2004 Posts: 337 Location: USA

Thanks everyone for the leads. Hopefully, those websites will be able to answer my questions.

My boyfriend is Argentine. If it works out that I decide to stay with him in Argentina, I'd probably enter into a civil union with him only if it were beneficial (i.e. permanent residency and/or some other benefit).

There are different definitions of what it means to be openly gay. I'm not a raging queen, and I certainly won't be strolling hand-in-hand with my boyfriend through the streets hoping to provoke straight men. Hopefully, I won't encounter any problems because I am pretty low-key and private. I'm not going to lie if someone asks me if I'm gay, but I don't go out of my way to inform people who aren't close to me. Also, let's hope that if some students assume I'm gay, they won't cause problems.

I just want to be able to live my life in peace while I am there. Go to movies with my boyfriend, go to restaurants, live together in an apartment, etc. I don't have any desire to make out in public, hold hands at the movies, or lisp & swish my way around an English language institute. Laughing

MatttheBoy said, "Buenos Aires is not San Francisco or Sydney but it isn't Bible Belt US of A either."

Carlos said to Y Vamos in the Argentina vs Chile thread, "Do me a favour and go back to your trailer park in Tennesee ... you are typical of your ilk."

I live in Nashville, Tennessee, which is in the Bible Belt, and I have never felt like I am in danger of physical violence. I have a great life here and can do everything I want as far as being gay is concerned. I've got no complaints.

carlos-england · Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2005 9:07 pm Post subject:

Veritas_Aequitas · Joined: 15 Jul 2004 Posts: 88 Location: Jalisco, Mexico

snielz · Joined: 05 Apr 2005 Posts: 165 Location: Buenos Aires

Johnny, nice reply man. You addressed all the ridiculous gay stereotypes while giving me a good chuckle. (Heterosexual couples that are as flamboyant as gay men are stereotyped to be can be just as ridiculous). I say you should be fine, as guys of course spend time together all the time. I have no idea of the legal and opportunities or restrictions, though I think you should be able to rent together as legally you would be only friends or roomates. I could imagine kissing attracting some interest, though I don�t know if it would be good or bad. I would imagine that just as in the states, some people could avoid you or give you a hard time and others would think it was sensational or merely think nothing of it. My impression is that Buenos Aires is a liberal city, although not terribly progressive (in the states these two are often one in the same but here I see a difference). Sorry, Im talking abstractly about things I don�t really know about- suerte!

JonnytheMann · Joined: 01 Dec 2004 Posts: 337 Location: USA

My boyfriend says that there shouldn't be a problem with violence or provocation as long as we are discrete. I am not daunted by homophobia really as I've put up with crap from straight guys all my life. If anyone gives me a problem is BsAs, I'll just do what I do here in Nashville -- smack them in the face with my Gucci purse! Hahaha. Jk. Laughing

Argentina might not be the gay paradise that Europe is. (I can only speak for the Continent. Never been to the UK.) But I think it should be similar to Nashville.

I have another question. Does a gay man stick out more in BsAs, or in the US? I mean, in continental Europe, guys are pretty metrosexual. What about BsAs? Are the straight guys pretty metrosexual there?

carlos-england · Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 8:11 pm Post subject:

I think it was Kostyas age more than the fact Hatton
was the better fighter. There was 9 years between them
and it told on the pace Hatton set in bullying Tyszu into
the ropes. Still Hatton is the main man in the light welterweight
division and we wait for Miguel Cotto.

Calazghe has just fought Mario Veit, there is talk of him
fighting lacy but I dount it will happen. Calazghe career
has stagnated terribly, a shame as he is a very talented
fighter.

Obviously I do not know Johnny, some gay people act camp
and some do not. My experience of 33 years of having South
American family (Peruvian, Chilean and Argentine) as well as
Spanish relatives might not make me an expert on the subject
but I know enough to know if I was gay I would give South
America a wide berth, next we will be saying sexism isn't
rife there also.