Job Discussion Forums

[billg]

I thought I would ask this question here on this forum. Although there doesn't seem to be any maximum age for hiring teachers, at least in China, Taiwan, Thailand, or Korea, there may be an unpublished restriction on hiring older teachers. Can any of you old hands give me the real skinny on older teachers getting jobs in Asia?

[Volodiya]

China seems to have no fixed upper age limit for those in relatively good health. Lots of teachers there report working past 60, a few past 70. You tend to hear these reports more often from people who are working in universities and colleges.

[bjwellgo8]

Although there is no official age limit, many schools put it at under 60. But if you look young and are in good health, some of them, esp the universities, would consider giving you an offer. For Chinese the retiring age for male officials is 60 and 55 for female. In state-owned companies that lose money, female workers may have to retire at 40 and male workers at 50. Same for teachers affiliated with the companies.

[JDYoung]

Age is not usually a problem in China but you should be in good health or at least have health problems well under control. You should be prepared to climb a lot of steps for example. At my university we have:

2 in their twenties
1 in his thirties
1 in his forties
2 in their fifties and
2 in their sixties

I think the top age we've had is 77.

I'm one of the fifties types.

The compulsory retirement ages in China are for Chinese. They need all the foreign teachers they can get so age, unless you're in a particularly active environment such as teaching kindie, is not a problem as such. Many schools prefer older teachers as we are considered more stable.

[billg]

Thanks for taking the time out to answer my question about being 55 and wanting to teach EFL in Asia. Going back into the archives here at Dave's it looks like age is not a real problem, particularly in China. I am in good health and have a lot of credentials and I would really like to start by teaching in Korea for a year or two. I realize this is not the Korea forum but it is the newbie forum so does anyone have any comments about being 55 and teaching in Korea?

[sojourner]

Bllg,

Is there any particular reason why you want to teach in Sth Korea ? Yes, many people have positive experiences there - but many DO NOT ! Browse through Dave's Korean forums - there are comments galore about bosses who cheat on teachers' salaries, don't undertake repairs in teachers' flats, as well as the (supposed) xenophobic attitudes of many Koreans.

Most of the ESL jobs in ROK are in the language school (or hagwan) sector. Although, people in their 50s and 60s have been known to find jobs in such schools, the preference of many (most?) hagwan bosses would appear to be for young teachers (ie, those under 40). Being an American would, however, give you a better chance of landing a hagwan job than someone of your age group who hails from a Commonwealth country.

In hagwans, the FTs usually teach for 30 hours per week, as compared to 12-16 hours per week in a uni or college in China. Hagwans usually provide their FTs with accommodation, but you would probably be required to share a flat with other teachers. Should your hagwan provide you with your own flat, be rest assured that it'll be "a bit on the small side" !

Probably, the best jobs in Sth Korea are in the uni/college sector. I've been told that such institutions are not influenced by "ageist" and "accentist" attitudes to the same extent as in the hagwan sector. The salaries paid to college/uni FTs might be roughly the same as what their hagwan counterparts receive - but, you would be working less hours and be entitled to long uni vacations ! However, because of such conditions, there is a lot of competition for jobs in the uni/college sector. Uni HRM people usually want to have face-to-face interviews with their prospective FTs, rather than have phone interviews, as is the case with the hagwan sector. So, there are always plenty of burnt-out hagwan teachers on hand to be interviewed at unis just down the road or in an adjoining town. There are some recruiters who do promise applicants, from outside the country, that they'll try to find uni jobs for, but I don't know how successfull they'd be, considering there are plenty of foreigners on hand to attend job interviews. Also, unlike the recruiters that specialise with hagwan vacancies, the uni recruiters often require successful applicants to pay a placement fee of, I think, the equivalent of a month's salary - they probably also get a fee from the uni, as well - double dippers !

As many posters have already indicated, China is relatively open to mature-aged teachers. Also, it is much easier to pick up a uni/college job in China, than it is in ROK. If you have a degree, you should consider a uni/college job, rather than one in a language school. As mentioned above, the teaching hours in a college varies between 12 and 16 teaching hours pw - and a "teaching hour" is only about 45 minutes ! The salaries, depending on whether you have a BA or MA, as well as your teaching experience, will vary between 4 to 5.5 K. RMB per month. But, as you'll have plenty of spare time, you'd be able to do some overtime or private tutoring. Because of China's lower cost of living, a FT at a uni working a normal 16 hours pw, but also doing 10 or 12 hours of o/t or moonlighting, will be just as financially well -off as a hagwan teacher working the normal 30 hour pw. Also, consider, the longer vacations that uni teachers are entitled to, compared to only about two weeks p.a. in the Korean hagwan sector.

I've already touched on the subject of teacher housing. In the uni/college sector in China, a FT is provided with his own, fully-furnished flat. I have have heard of single FTs, being provided with two-bedroom flats. In my first college, in China, I was provided with a one-bedroom flat, ie a bedroom, kitchen/dining -room, living-room and bathroom. In my current job, my flat is considerably smaller - in effect, a bed-sitting room, with ensuite bathroom and kitchen. I, personally, find it a bit cramped, but a colleague, living in a similar-sized flat, regards it as quite spacious compared to what he had when he was a hagwan teacher back in Sth Korea ! Also, in many cases, Chinese colleges/unis don't charge their FTs for utilities.

But, apart from the question of salaries and housing, in the Chinese uni/college sector, unlike the situation in language schools in both countries, you'll have the opportunity to teach subjects besides the usual Oral English. Such subjects would include : Western Culture, British/American Literature, Business English and International Business.

I think that it would be definitely more worthwhile to consider a job in China's uni/college sector, rather than one in a Korean hagwan. Working here, for one or two years, would provide you with some useful experience should you ever decide to want to work in a Korean college. Anyway, depending on where you are in China, it probably wouldn't take you very long to fly to ROK, during vacation period, for a job interview at a uni !

Why don't you submit some queries to Dave's Korean forums ? You'll probably have to send a message to Dave's requesting to be registered for the Korean forums.

Good luck.

Peter

[schwa]

Big push in Korea these days to put native speakers in public schools. There is no age discrimination.

With the right credentials you can earn well. The free housing is generally decent. The work is not onerous -- 22 contact hours a week max, classes around 35-40 kids. In my experience the kids are innocent & nice & can be a lot of fun. I'm 52 & into my 5th year working in middle schools here & I love my job.

Search on EPIK, GEPIK, & SMOE for govt-run programs serving, respectively, all of Korea, Gyeonggi Province (surrounding Seoul), & Seoul. Dave's Korea forums also have a lot of useful debate & imformation regarding public school teaching.

[sojourner]

Schwa,

Re the jobs in public schools, is the preference for Nth Americans, or will they consider native-speakers of English who happen to come from Commonwealth countries ? Also, what is the age limit - 55, 60 or 65 ?

What will such teachers be teaching ? Merely, Oral English ?

Also, are the FTs who work in the public schools entitled to the usual long, paid vacations - or, are they required to spend the bulk of the vacations at summer schools, or the like ?

One would imagine that there would be a lot of competition for such jobs - from the hundreds of burnt-out hagwan teachers; or, are the selection requirements pretty rigid, so as to exclude the bulk of the FT community who only possess a BA degree ?

I'm really intrigued of what you have just posted ! After my current stint in China ends in July 2006, I was thinking of applying for HK's NET scheme - but now, I have another option !

Thanks for the info.

Peter

[billg]

Thanks Sojourner for the well written and well thought out reply to my question. I will give China a second look. It looks as though you have a lot of experience teaching EFL and I would really like to PM you with some of my questions if that's all right.

Bill

[billg]

I too am intrigued by what you wrote. Briefly I am 56 with a BS and MS from American Universities, last 3 years teaching (Math, English/Language Arts) in American public middle school (southwest with extremely low SES students, high dropout rates, high crime rate, etc.), a few published articles (not first author) when I was in a doctoral program, over 25 years experience teaching adults, and extremely high computer skills. I am taking an online TEFL course (probably i to i) this December. I am not quite sure what adequate or good qualifications mean. Also, when I was in college I put in extra classes and time to get the BS or MS over the BA or MA degrees. I hardly ever see anyone mention science degrees. Is this a problem that will actually detract from my qualifications?

[billg]

Okay, I have one more very stupid question that I am asking in all sincerety. I have a goatee - no . . . more specifically a Van Dyke that I have had for many years. Not a problem at all teaching here in the US in the southwest but should I get rid of it before applying in Asia, particulary Korea or Taiwan? It's in my picture on the web page so should I change that also? Hopefully, being a newbie, you'll pardon me for asking what seems to be a silly question.

Bill

[schwa]

In answer to some of the questions above.

Yeh, we're meant to promote conversational skills. What & how you teach is largely left up to you though.

Hagwon people arent flocking to public school jobs because many have minimal qualifications (= low pay) or they find the idea of teaching large classes daunting. If you have a masters or a 100-hr tefl cert + 2 years experience you can come in at Level 1 which pays considerably better than most entry-level jobs here. Any major is okay.

By Korean law, you must have a passport from one of these countries: US, Canada, Great Britain, Ireland, Australia, NZ, or South Africa. Doesnt matter which. Nor does the govt care about age, gender, or appearance. I wear a beard & an earring -- no problem.

Vacations look stingy in the contract (one week, twice a year) but in practice most teachers have a good bit more time off. Conditions vary from school to school. Some extra work is expected during school vacation (sometimes for extra pay). I get most of february & august off. You also get a free return plane ticket home each year if you re-up.

Plus theres tons of odd days off throughout the semester for special school events. Typically, you have no responsibilty for exams, grading, or homework. Your mandate is just to show up & put on an engaging 45-minute lesson. You have a Korean team-teacher in class as well to assist you.

I spemd about a third of my contact hours providing teachers classes. This is high-end but most districts have some provision for teacher ed. I enjoy the adult contact.

To repeat, conditions do vary from school to school. Theres a bit of potluck involved. But if you bring diligence & flexibility to the job it can work out pretty sweet. Also pay, I'm guessing, is double to 3 times what most people make in China.

[sojourner]

Schwa,

Many thanks for your prompt response ! I will certainly be considering the Sth Korean public school sector. Just one other question: what is the age limit for FTs who intend to work in the P.S. sector ?

- - - - - - - - -

Bill,

Feel free to PM me - I think the facility is working again. Also, it might be a good idea, if you have queries about Sth Korea, to join Dave's Korea fora.

Also, refer to my posting to the thread entitled "Newbies in 50s" (or something like that !) - just below this one.

You mentioned that you have had some secondary school teaching experience. Have you completed a sec.teachers' training course, as well as being a registered teacher ? If so, you might want to consider HK's NET scheme.

You mentioned that you'll be doing an online TESOL course in December. On these fora, there are often a lot of adverse criticisms of such online courses. If you have the time, you might want to consider doing something like the CELTA or Trinity courses. They are recognised everywhere. Both involve the trainees having to teach actual English L2 learners. If you intend to come to this part of the world, you might want to consider enrolling in a CELTA course, in Thailand - much cheaper than doing it in the US !

If you intend to teach in China, when do you intend to start ? As the next uni/college term commences in late Feb (I think), it might be a good idea to start job hunting, now.

BTW, re China, have you ever spent much time in the "developing world" - not just a weekend in a 5-star hotel in Acapulka ! For some people, China can be a real shock to the system, especially if working in a small city, where facilities may not be as well developed as they are in, say, central Shanghai.

Regards,

Peter

[schwa]

Re: upper age limits. Interesting question I cant answer. We're just now testing that frontier. I know people in their mid-50s who have been taken on this year. As far as I know there is no set policy.

[JDYoung]

My degree is a BSc in physics but since I also have good language skills I've had no problems teaching English. I do get some questions, mostly from students, about how I ended up teaching English but it's just another way to start a conversation as far as I'm concerned.

As for the goatee, I would say don't worry about it for China. It will be another reason for people to point and stare but you'll get a lot of that anyway so the minor increase will be virtually unnoticeable.