Job Discussion Forums

[ausmel]

Ok, so I need some help. I have Bachelors degree in Health I am 24 and Australian (Australian passport) I have worked 2 years professional in research. Basically I want to become a primary teacher in oz, but before I go back to do post grad. I want to get experience etc be sure this is really what I want to do act.

So I have enrolled in TESOL, got my advanced first aid and other bits and pieces, started volunteering out of hours at a local school and trying to read everything on the internet about ESL. The problem is all the advice seems so conflicting. No jobs in Europe, can�t work there without a European passport and bad pay and not enough work when you can get it, but then lots of work in Spain and eastern Europe, but bad pay, Asia is low cost of living and bad pay.

Ultimately, all I am looking to get some experience teaching under my belt, hopefully leave recouping the cost I outlaid to get there and a little extra in the back pocket, have a great time and meet other fab teachers etc. and do it living in an ok apartment, eating three meals a day and working for a school that doesn't give you too much grief.

Is this possible? And if so where should I am? Should I be secure a job before I go / or knock on doors when I get there?

I speak basic German and about to take intermediate level at university next semester so I thought Europe. But if I am going to make better money and have better conditions in Asia or the Middle East I am just as happy to go there. I have been about 60 hours a week for the last two years, so I don�t mind hard work / long hours.

My only other fear (and I know this is really stupid) is making mates. How likely is it you show up in a foreign country, can't speak the language, don't know a soul, don�t have anywhere to live and start work at a school where you can't talk to anyone. I am kinda hoping there is generally a couple of other English teachers or it easy to meet expats, or at least find someone to live with. That is my other question, do you usually arrange your own accommodation, do you have to live at the school or do you do your own thing? I guess it totally depends on place. but I really wanted to ask anyway.

any info would be very much appreciated. Thanks!

[Glenski]

[Gregor]

Ausmel,
First off, I want to admit that I am a DoS at an EF school in China. Just so no one accuses me of hiding anything from you and trying to do a commercial for my school or company. I am not. In fact, I'm leaving it AND China soon, for my own reasons. OK? A few people here will vouch for my (sometimes brutal) honesty about what newbies are likely to encounter. And I still say...
Come out to China.
No, really. You're going to get tons of people telling you what a bad idea this is, but I've been here for three years now (did two in Indonesia - another not-bad idea for you) and it offers exactly what you're asking for.

1. It's cheap to live here. Yes, the pay is not great, but you will have a nice place to live and it's a perfectly comfortable place as well. You may have to share, but you want to make mates, right? There is no reason that you shouldn't be able to save MOST of your salary, unless you just toss your money away on hookers, booze, drugs and Western comforts (none of which is necessary for a nice life here).
2. You'll get some diverse experience out of it. You will, if you take the right job, get mindless middle school experience (in front of 50 or 60 apathetic students per class, sometimes) as well as private, smaller-class straight ESL practice, maybe some primary school experience, kindergarten, maybe even some low-rent university experience.
This is one reason that people do NOT want to go to EF - it's just so likely that you have to do any or all of these things. But for what you want, mate, it's just the thing.
3. You do not need to know - in fact, are very much expected not to know - the local language at any point in your tenure in the country. This sounds absurd, but it's true. You will need to learn get-by Chinese once you arrive, but there will be plenty of help at the outset, and what you need to learn is as easy as falling off a log.
Plus, it's not as hard as it looks and sounds, in case you are interested.
And finally, 4. The government is pissy and difficult to work with and has mindless regulations that almost seem to be put into place specifically for making your life difficult. Why is this a selling point? Again, mate, it's what you're asking for specifically. You're trying to decide if this is what you want to do. So live through this experience for a year and see how you handle it. It's not as bad as I make it sound, and Australia is likely not as bad as China (though I know full well that the U.S. is every bit as bad in this regard).

Oh, yeah, one more thing: 5. If you go with EF or a similar school, they'll reimburse your flight to China immediately after you arrive and fly you home as a bonus for finishing your contract. So you're out-of-pocket for the flight, but you'll get it back. In the end, coming out and working here - again, I can only vouch for EF in this regard - has no expense at all.

And, really, that sounds worse than I mean it to. I've really enjoyed living here for three years now. The bad that I have mentioned is what I say, but it's not that often, and not as bad as I seem to imply. Really. It would be a good experience for you.

In case you want more information:
http://www.englishfirst.com/teacherinfo/recruitment/default.asp
and:
http://www.englishfirst.com.cn/englishfirst/schools/shenyang/intro.aspx
That second site is one particular EF school, but there's a function to the right that says "Select Another City" and you can look at any one of the schools.
If you want any more information, feel free to PM me. I'll be as helpful as I can.
Good luck.

[ausmel]

hey thanks, I have heard of company's similar like international house and british council, i will so check it out. Glad to here you have enjoyed your time in china. Were have you been based? If you don't mind me asking city or rural? Also, one other quick question, sharing acc (not a problem lived in a sorority in the states and with 6 other aussies and south africans in london) I can handle share houses. Did EF set you up or did you sort it yourself? and last but not least, where there other english teachers at your school, was it easy to meet others, i have heard there are loads of EFL teachers there.

cheers and thanks again

[Gregor]

Wow.
Amazing that I haven't been called out yet.
OK. I've always been in a big city. Shenyang to start with (and I can't say enough in favor of that place) and now, Dalian. Dalian, in Chinese eyes, is a small city (only four point five million souls!!). i know nothing of rural China.

EF set me up with a place. Mind you, when I came to China for the first time, I came as a director of studies. That meant a private place as part of the deal. But we'd set a new teacher up in a place from the moment he or she got into town, or put him/her into a nice hotel until one could be worked out. Sometimes, we'd put a teacher into another teacher's flat, but we always worked out permanent housing as soon as humanly possible.

And there were loads of other ESL teachers and various other Western expats to hang out with. Some locations have more than others. But if you go with big cities, you'll have no trouble at all.

[ausmel]

Fab advice, thank you so much I will so check out china then

[JZer]

I would recommend going to Korea because the pay is higher. You can go to China but not expect to return with any money in your pocket. If you go to Korea you might even be able to save some money towards the teaching certification in Australia.

[Gregor]

JZer,
I've heard this about Korea, but I've heard nightmares about actually teaching there. I see that you are there, though, so how is it? How are you treated? How are the kids? And what's your teaching environment (i.e. language school; high school)?
To the OP - well, what I just said. I've heard about crap treatment at the hands of the Chinese as well, but teachers I know who have done both maybe didn't like China much, but flippin' HATED Korea.

I'm not dissin' Korea, now. I've never been. But those who have (or are still there), where do all these complaints come from, and what would you recommend being careful of?

[sojourner]

Ausmel,

Gregor has made some v.good general comments re teaching and living in China. As for EF, if you do a search on Dave's, you'll find both good and bad comments. Everything depends on which EF school you work at - they are all franchises. It would appear that Gregor is working at one of the better ones. Another person who is a D.O.S. at a good EF school is "Deezy" - do a search on Dave's for some of her previous posts re EF contracts, etc. I've been told that the salaries at EF schools - as well as at many other language schools - are probably higher than those offered by the uni/college sectors, but the hours might be a bit longer. Also, with many language schools, you may be required to share a flat with other FTs. With college and uni jobs, you are usually supplied with your own fully-furnished flat ! In my first uni job here, my flat was excellent - 1 bedroom, living room. kitchen-dining room and bathroom). At my current uni, my flat is more like a bed-siiter - ok, but a bit cramped.

In uni and college jobs, one is required to teach only 16 "teaching" hours - or abour 12 or 13 "normal" hours. In some places, the teaching load might be 12 or 14 "teaching hours - but in others, 18. For a newbie with a BA, you would probably be offered 4 K. RMB per month. There will also be an extra 20-30 RMB per month, paid as a "taxi" or "phone" allowance. At the end of a 12 month contract, you'll also be given a 2 K. RMB "travel allowance". Often you'll be provided with free utilities. However, before signing a contract, check to see if you'll be paid 12 monthly payments, or only 10. If the former, it means that you get paid for all the uni vacations - 1 month at the beginning of the year and almost 2 months in July/August ! Also, you'll get two 1 week breaks (National and May Day weeks). By comparison, the paid vacations offered by language schools are often pretty paltry. Yes, unis and colleges also reimburse one's airfare - usually the cost of two single journeys or a round trip; but due to the growing competion for such jobs, some institutions are now offering reimburement for only a oneway flight.

So, I think working in a uni or college would be a much better option than working in a language school. With your background in health sciences, you might want to consider working in a college or uni that specialises in such fields - you might well end up teaching "medical English" ! Often in the uni/college sectors, you'll be teaching subjects other that the usual Oral English , eg: Business English, Western Culture and British/American Literature. Also, as you are contemplating becoming a primary school teacher in Australia, you might want to consider getting a job in a uni that has a primary teacher training dept, to give you an insight into Chinese teacher training methods.

Apart from language schools, unis and colleges, another option for you to consider is to work in the state or private primary and secondary schools. Do a search for postings by a "Chris_Crossley" - I'm pretty sure that he has worked in such places, in China.

In China, the cost of living is pretty low - you'll be able to save the bulk of your salary, as you'll have a rent-free flat, probably free utilities and will be within walking distance of your insititute. If you are on 4 K. RMB, you should be able to live on 500 RMB per month, provided that you don't frequent bars too much, where a small Heineken could cost between 15-25 RMB ! Thus, if you live "frugally", you should be able save the equivalent of, at least, 7 K. AUD per year - much more if you do o/t or private tutoring, which you'll be tempted to do, as you'll have plenty of time available after your normal teaching obligations ! (BTW, "frugal" living by FTS here, in China, does not mean the same sort of thing as "frugality" does in Aust. My "frugal lifestyle means that I never have to do any cooking at home - apart from eating at "hole-in- the wall" noodle bars 4 nights pw, I go to "reasonable" restaurants about 3 nights pw. Also, once every 2 weeks, or so, I go to KFC or a pizza rstaurant for a Western food "fix" ! )

You mentioned something about wanting eventually to return to Aust, in order to do a Dip.Ed, and to teach in primary schools there. If you are definitely heading off to Asia, it may not be a good idea to make any definite long-term plans re "home". Once you're in Asia, your perspective towards Western culture, may well change. You may well become "hooked" on the lifestyle of the expat teacher ! Yes, there might be considerable merit in returning to Aust to do your teacher training, but during those 12, or so, months, you'll be pining to return to Asia ! When you do return, with a Dip.Ed, you would be in a position to get one of the better-paid teaching jobs in Asia, eg in international schools or with HK's NET scheme.

You also said something about the prospects of finding Western company. In most unis, there'll be at least 4 or 5 other FTs. You'll soon found out where there are other FTs in the area, and the bars and restaurants where they tend to hang out at.

For further queries re living in China, post a message to Dave's China Off-Topic Forum.

JZer suggested Sth Korea. Yes, the salaries there would be higher than in China - but so is the cost of living ! Also, for the higher salary, you would be required to work longer hours than is the case in China - 30 hours pw in a hagwan (or language school, where most EFL jobs are at), compared to only 12 - 16 pw in China. Also, with many (most?) hagwan jobs, you might be required to share a flat with other teachers - while, with a uni job in China, you would have your own flat.

I've been told that another good place to consider is Turkey. If interested check the Turkey forum. Mexico, too ?

Good luck.

Peter

[JZer]

[Jizzo T. Clown]

[pancakes]

I live in a small (2 million) backwater Chinese city. I spend no more than 800 RMB per month. That's enough to live comfortably, like a Western bloke, but I rarely go out drinking. There's not much to do in this city, so cost of entertainment is minimal. If I was living in a bigger city with more to do, I think I'd spend about 1,500 per month.

Often - it seems to me - talk of 'cost of living' is hiding the fact that entertainment opportunities are lacking. For example, if somewhere claimed to have a "low cost of living" I'd guess there was simply not much to do there.

At the same time, I earn well over RMB4,000 per month. Expect this sort of salary from a university, but definitely not a private school. With a private school salary and a city without much entertainment I'm able to save comfortably. I'll be going home with more than Aus$10,000 from this year, after having lived well and travelled a bit.

My recommendation to the OP is to look for a job at a reputable private school, with a moderate salary and working hours. That will give you enough time to see the country well, and enough dollars to allow you to save some.

Just be wary of private schools - the chance that they'll rip you off are greater than universities. Make sure they give you the e-mail address of current foreign teachers, and do very careful research before you come. And come with enough money to buy your way out of any hole you might find yourself in (ie enough for a flight home at least).

[vikdk]

long hours are the biggest killer - remember most jobs only tell you of in class contact hours - you know how long it takes to prepare 15 hours of classes/week, a lot of time when you're first starting out. Also watch out for travelling time - in China sme teaching companies will give you class hours but fail to mention the 10 or so travelling hours/week (sometimes more), and that doesn't include the 2 hour or so lunch break in some godforsaken industrial town - the mornings you have to travel a hour an a half for the 8.00 class can also be real cozy. Personally I beleive as a starter you shouldn't go for any job over 15hours/week, and as for wages you can negotiate, and negotiate hard - 100 hour is quite easy to reach in the private mills even though outside China none of these firms will admit it. Oh another thing - the privates like EF often have weekend and evening classes for really tired non motivated small kids - mummy an daddies idea of course - if you like kids more than money the whole experience can be a bit yucky - not a nice way for nice people to earn money. Anyways the only way to find out is to test the water - you like you'll stay and find your own nitche.

[Gregor]

[vikdk]

guys if you think the long hours are a myth try looking around on the china board - beleive me there are so many vet FT's in china looking for 2nd 3rd or 4th contracts - EF for these guys is really unatractive.
as for the evening and weekend classes nobody thinks its cruel on the teachers but on the kids - like stealing their free time for playing and being children - lots more FT's are saying no to child explotation in this manner - think hard about a job like this if you like children and want to do them good