Job Discussion Forums

[Zzonkmiles]

There are many types of students you'll encounter in your classrooms, be they at NOVA, a university, a high school, or your regular eikaiwa classroom. You've got your stoic salarymen, your absent-minded retirees, your bubbly housewives, your college-aged students eager to study abroad, and your 13-year olds who are being forced to study English even though they hate it.

I can deal with all of those types of students. But there is one brand that simply drives me INSANE. It's the student who thinks he or she knows your own language better than you do and has no qualms about challenging you on it even though the student is wrong. This student doesn't even have to be at an advanced level in order to do this; it seems to be more of a personality trait, rather than one that arises from having studied the language so much and being able to use it proficiently.

I know that when we study foreign languages, we commonly learn some detailed grammar rules and whatnot and sometimes learn things that, while technically correct, sound wrong simply because "nobody really talks that way" or the special word or grammar point is not really widely used. But I am not about to correct a Japanese person's Japanese usage, especially not when I am a guest in Japan. (And now that I think about it, very rarely do I even correct a native English speaker's English mistakes. Maybe I'm just easy-going or am not in the "grammar/spelling police" crowd or something.)

Anyway, my question to you all is how do you deal with these students? How do you respond to them when they attempt to correct you even though they are wrong, or do you just ignore them? I'm very interested in hearing your responses. Just this week I gave my students an exam and one of them crossed out one of my "wrong" sentences and wrote what she thought was the correct version of it in the margins (which was, of course, wrong). That was the impetus behind this thread, in case anyone was wondering.

[lajzar]

Ask them why no one pronounces the final -u in desu (exceptions made when its exagerated for cute effect).

[abufletcher]

You're right that overt "other-correction" is extremely rare in naturally occuring talk. It's relatively rare even in language classrooms. What you see a bit more commonly is "embedded repair" where the teacher uses a revised version of the student's faulty language in a response turn -- often in an unmarked manner:

S: Yesterday, I go shopping.
A: Ah, you went shopping yesterday, that's interesting.

But the phenomenon you're describing is really different than this sort of conversational correction. I have to admit that in 10 years of teaching at a Japanese university, this has never come up with a student. I do remember a couple of instances where one of my Japanese colleagues challenged a native speaker on an exam item but that's a bit different. They were completely willing to concede superior language awareness on the past of the native speaker but their concern was matching the language on the exam with the language taught in high schools and "English as taught" clearly took precident over "English as spoken" in their view.

[fluffyhamster]

http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/teacher/viewtopic.php?t=2793

There may be no other alternative than to prove the student is clearly wrong (assuming you don't have better things to do with your time ).

I find the "correcting" of the corrections on the exam bizarre...assure her that whatever she writes will not change her grade/help her pass similar future exams nor improve her English generally: she should be investigating the new language you've offered, not reducing it all back down until it fits in with her limited beliefs.

[abufletcher]

[shuize]

[Gordon]

For your next class, plan to teach a difficult grammar point. Then just before you start, tell the class that _______ will explain it. Hand the pen off to them and take a seat.

[abufletcher]

[abufletcher]

[Brooks]

I just say USO! That it is MY language and why would I lie to them?
I have studied grammar for years.
If it persists just tell their homeroom teacher that the student is disrespectful.

[mrjohndub]

I have an eikawa JTE who has confronted me, kindly but misguidedly, a couple of times about supposed mistakes that I made in teaching my own students. From time to time, all the students of the native teachers ask a few questions that they are struggling with to the JTEs because they can give a detailed question in Japanese and the JTE is eager to help. So, then they come to me...and the JTE asks me why I'm teaching the rule or example incorrectly.

...And I've been appalled twice now that the JTE would bring this up to me directly in front of the student. My students trust me and respect me...I'm kind to them, they are progressing, they appear to have great confidence in my abilities and have fun in class...but this calls into question my command of the language and my ability to convey consistent knowledge to my students.

Both times the JTE was wrong. One question concerned intonation when asking questions and the other concerned tenses. Both were simple enough points. But the JTE didn't even wait to digest the question before she concluded that I was probably wrong. If she'd mentioned it to me in private, she would have concluded quickly that I was correct. In fact, there with the three of us facing each other, she did conclude that I was correct. (It's worth noting that I have great personal rapport with this JTE and that she is also my Japanese instructor.)

But then the worst part happened. To save face for herself, the student or the both of them, she responded that school-age Japanese are 'all' taught this way and that I was confusing the students. First of all, I find it hard to believe that all are taught the same way. Every teacher has varying skills, qualifications, experience and drive. So, that's BS. Then, the suggestion that I was confusing my own student when she had such a poor understanding of the situation was inappropriate. She conceded to me, using English that was mostly over the head of the student, that I was correct on the language point, but then stated in mutually intelligible English and Japanese that the language was beside the point. She basically made it seem to the student that I was spending time teaching trivial things, that he was making mistakes to be certain, but not significant enough to bother spending time undoing his bad habits that he picked up from one of those cookie-cutter JTEs in school that taught him and everybody else the same wrong way.

That to me meant that she was suggesting that the Japanese experience of Enlish learning was homogenous and consistent enough to warrant its own dialect, complete with those like herself as the defenders. She came across as telling me, "We Japanese"...just kidding. No, she was saying that this is how all of us do it and you're going to cause problems for some students. Just let them all make these mistakes, because I see no problem and I do nothing about it.

I didn't really take it so personally, but it was a shame for the student to have that message conveyed to him. I think it was unprofessional as well.

[Glenski]

This year I taught tiny 2-student class of high level Japanese HS students. A German girl (exchange student) was added about 3 months before she returned to Germany. She was a royal pain because she continually corrected me (or thought she had done so).

Since she was friends with the other 2, I merely held my ground with remarks like, "Yes, that's right in some cases, but not all." or "Well, it's correct in the very small context you have provided, but it's more natural to say it my way." or "Perhaps true where you learned it, but it's not that way in North American English." I could see that her 2 friends were not enjoying the class with her interruptions, but I remained professional. Heck, I'd taught the 2 girls a couple of years earlier, so they were familiar with me and my style, and I was not about to lose face.

That is the key, to me. Remain calm and professional. You will come out on top every time, even if the student is overly bubbly, over-enthusiastic, and overly corrective.

If all else fails, flunk the student (assuming he/she earns it).

[Nismo]

I've had students question me at an eikaiwa, but usually as a result of something taught by their teachers at school. Basically, I just shatter their impressions that they have of their teacher, and they usually believe me. I've never had a student insist that I am wrong.

For example, a student approached me and asked me why his sentence was wrong, since his teacher at school had informed him that he was mistaken. The sentence was, "The bank went bankrupt." His teacher told him, "You can't have 'bank' in the sentence twice." I was, at first, dumbfounded, then responded with a healthy laugh, and finally told my student that from this point on he should disregard most of his high school teacher's corrections and come straight to me. He has done so ever since.

[mrjohndub]

[fluffyhamster]

In what sort of school exactly are you working, John (mrjohndub)? From the lack of communication you seem to be having with this JTE, one could be forgiven for initially assuming that you are in a private language school with your very own class (Yey! ), and that this JTE has somehow become involved (enrolled?) in it...but as you really do seem to be needing to at least consider what she's always counter-suggesting, it's just as if not more likely that by 'an eikaiwa' you mean as part of a (private?) high school's curriculum somewhere in the wilds of Saitama.

If it's an actual eikaiwa (private language school), then do as Nismo seems to be doing and pay little if any heed to what some (in Nismo's case, thankfully far-removed) JTE is or isn't telling these kids; and if it's indeed a high school class (even if only nominally team-taught with a JTE or supposedly exclusively "your responsibility"), then try to get the JTE to make the time to thrash out what would be (more, or less, appropriate) in the long run for the kids, otherwise there will continue to be the tension between what you yourself want to say and do, and what the cookie-cutters are always mixing up and half-baking.