Job Discussion Forums

[The_Hanged_Man]

Howdy all! I have some interviews coming up in a couple months for 2 international schools located in Jakarta and Shanghai. They are both run by the same organization so the pay and benefits are almost identical for both ($24,000US/Yr. + solid benefits). I'm having a difficult time trying to decide which place I would rather go to if hired. In which place could I save more? Which do you prefer in terms of life style and culture? Of course this is very subjective but I would still like to hear your opinions. Thanks!

[gugelhupf]

If saving money is your priority then you could certainly do that on $24k (Rp 240Mill)in Jakarta. I don't know a thing about Shanghai so can't help you there.

Assuming your housing is basically free and you don't have a family to support then it is possible to live comfortably in Jakarta on half that salary - which would work out at roughly 10M Rp per month. When I say 'comfortably' I mean in comparison to life as a teacher at a high school in the West. Those who fancy the jet-set lifestyle won't find it as a teacher. 10M per month (above housing costs) lets you take holidays several times per year, eat well, dress well and entertain in moderation.

If you saved nothing you could live rather better.

I suspect that $24k wouldn't go quite as far as that in Shanghai - but I'm only guessing. People I know who have worked in both Indonesia and China ON THE WHOLE tend to prefer the former.

[Gregor]

Jakarta, over-all, is cheaper than Shanghai, and I personally liked it better.
Also, in Shanghai housing is less likely to be part of the deal. In Jakarta, it probably IS part of the deal. In either case, though, don't forget to ask.
You can also get more Western stuff in Jakarta. Maybe not a consideration, but if you're going to LIVE there, it might become one.
Jakarta is much, much dirtier than Shanghai. But I'd still go there. I loved Jakarta. I thought it was awesome.

[TEAM_PAPUA]

Mate - you should really be thinking about the country you WANT to live in as opposed to the salary & the ability to save.

I've lived in both & the differences are so many & so enormous. Try researching the country/city first - what do the websites say about culture shock etc. read the forums and see what the people are saying about both places. Then once you've decided on Indonesia or Jakarta I'll be happy to answer any specific questions.

Personally, I chose Jakarta over Shanghai and I wouldn't go back to that hole if they paid me double your expected salary. But each to his own.

[Gregor]

I would agree with Team Papua, but only up to a point, and only for people with some personal experience with the countries in question.
Before I say this, I want to let everyone know that I am well aware that no one is going to agree with me, but in case the OP or someone else reading this might, here you are:
NO amount of research is going to help you decide whether you are likely to like the country or not. Had I researched China and Indonesia, and then researched the cities in question, I don't think I would have ever gone to Jakarta in a million years.
But now that I know them both, I really miss Jakarta and I dread ever having to return to Shanghai for any period of time. I hated that place...even though it is MUCH cleaner and easier to navigate and more modern. Never mind the cost of living. Has nothing to do with what I'm saying. I hated it there. YOU'D have to pay ME to live there - I mean, my rent and all my expenses on top of a damn good salary, and even then I'd live to regret the decision.
But I know tons of foreigners who love it there. Go figure.
My advice is NOT to do research. Which country or city intrigues you, or has someone there you know or any other pull? But make it an aesthetic pull, not a financial one. Otherwise you will be sorry. And you might be, anyway. Just jump in and go for it.

[The_Hanged_Man]

Thanks for all the replies guys. Yeah, I understand that one shouldn't focus on saving, but I have some serious debt I need to pay off in America. If I can't pay the bills then how much I like the place is pretty much irrelevent. In any case housing, utilities, and taxes are included as part of my benefits for both of the schools so it seems I should be able to save enough in either Jakarta or Shanghai.

On the social side of things how are things in the local and expat communites in terms of being open and accepting in Jakarta? I know Indonesia is a muslim country, so I am wondering how conservative the people are. As a single guy how much does it have to offer in terms of a social life?

Alot of you did not seem to like Shanghai very much. Any specific reasons? Any insights you could would be much appreciated.

[TEAM_PAPUA]

Yes - granted that it is absolutely impossible to completely prepare yourself for life in another country/city by simply reading about it, but it is a start at least.

Life in China is very different to life here. Like any place it has it's pros & cons. Take some time to read through the posts on this board & the Chinese board to get an overall impression of the 'mood' of the teachers living and working in each. Again, it is not possible to gain a complete picture as the posts are very subjective - but the overall 'mood' should give you some idea.

In my opinion, China is the absolute end of the earth and if living in a human zoo is your thing then go ahead. But, you could go there first then once you arrive in Indonesia you'll really appreciate this place. I did 2 years here, 2 years there, and now I'm back here for good.

Just a note about prices - seems that the consensus is that Shanghai is more expensive than Jakarta. If you are living the life of a company executive then life in Shanghai is more expensive. But if you are going local, the cost of living is much, much cheaper.

[Gregor]

[tommo_club1830]

As a single hot blooded male in Indonesia, I would trully recommend Jakarta. I live in Bogor and trust me when i say muslim women are the best. They love the Bule!

Im moving to Jakarta in December and looking forward to it, the women here think that us non - indo men are gorgeous! you will get looks everywhere and could easily take a different woman home everynight.

if you are coming here im looking for a wingman myself - its ok to fly solo but sometimes you just cant be arsed to have hoards of women fling themselves at you and want a beer and watch said women.

Come to Indo - Live the Dream

p.s. if your getting the wages stated, you can buy the first round!

[sidjameson]

Hey Tommo,
Well what a post.....I was there 9 years ago in Medan. It was like that then and there too. In fact it was so good that even though I have been in Japan ever since I still think about Indonesia every day.
Was thinking about moving back down there. Thing is though that I am now 37 not 27... I have kept in shape though and still have a fun attitude. I do though get quoted at my age...its the damn gentic baldness How you rekon I would do?
I know, I know, sounds a bit sad, but hey any guy out there who isnt thinking the same as me is either gay, christian or just lieing. And I aint about to get on my knees, not for some 2000 year old guy anyway.

[tommo_club1830]

I love it because im still a young pup in this crazy town. What i dont like about this crazy town is that age and looks dont matter to these women. They lap up any bule, just if you arnet as pretty as you think, women might only want you for your money so if your not worried about spending money on drinks and a few pressies here and there youll do fine. Japan is nice, but a country which has wanking booths just goes to show that the women jjust arnt that easy. Join the darkside - come back!

[uilleannpiper]

If you have debts to pay off back home, my advice is stay away from socialising with the Jakarta women. Most of them, the ones that have no scruples about hanging around with expat men, will bleed you dry, either in Jakarta, or when they convince you to marry them - then you will go into even more serious debt, servicing their parents' desires for new home, new car, new 'ini dan itu'.... and the new wife spends her new found freedom in the States hanging around shopping malls with other Indo wives spending big on hubby's credit cards. Trust me....I know too many Engineers who've been there, done that...except that Engineers tend to have much bigger wages and thus the burden is less felt. Anyway, there' plenty to do without fraternising with the Blok M set.

UP

[tommo_club1830]

LOL the women from blok m- arrhhh the memories. If you play with fire your gonn get burned. Dont fight temptation - embrace it.

My only problem with all these yellow bellied bules is they forget one thing - no! Can i borrow some money - no can you pay for my taxi - no will you marry me - no! Its so simple yet when theyget a random woman giving you a little bit of attention you forget this simple simple word.

Remember although how stupid it sounds, we are the women in Indonesia, we are the thing women chase and we can get away with anything we want. Depends on if your a player or if your just in the game!

[sidjameson]

Thanks Tommo. Ahh a young pup......yep I understand your disdain for the older, fat, beer bellied guys walking around with something that would turn heads in Scunthorpe......but as I I hear the ref blowing the full time whistle on my own legitimite participation in the game, at least with the most desirable younger women.....I can't help feeling that if there is anyway I can bribe the ref to let the clock tick for a few more minutes, I'd take it. And believ me it will come to you too.
So how is Bogor in terms of the opposition compared to the capital? Is it a case of dropping down from the majors to some scraggy farm team? Or is the quality still to be found? I guess that the girls are lot more conservative.
Medan 10 years ago, it sometimes felt that the girls were either virgins or whores.

[sidjameson]

God Tommo, you sound exactly like me when I was last there. Funny I thought when I left that Indonesia was just about to go through the whole sexual revolution thing, but seems like 10 years of MTV hasnt had the drastic effect that I had predicted.
So Jarkata wins hands down by the sound of things. Pity as I never thought I would like it there, but hey no point playing in the second division if you can still play in the premiership.
One question, I realize that I will probably have to put in a bit more effort/cash to get the home wins that you are used to, but how much do you find that you need to have a good life including socially in Indonesia? How much more did you need in Jakarta?
Oh one word of warning.......I bet the way you feel about women will be the same now as when you are 30, 35 40 and beyond. Here in Japan I know countless guys who did get married and 5 years and 2 kids later would give anything to be able to turn back the clock and do the whole thing differently.No matter how good the cavier eat it long enough and you'll be hankering after beens on toast.