Job Discussion Forums

[matttheboy]

Here's a link to an interesting article from the economist

http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=5093522

What's the feeling you get from the man in the street where you are?

In Argentina, all the people i know recognise the destructiveness of military rule, be it right or left wing. People here know that democracy is the best form of governance but do not trust the politicians (and rightly so-Argentines are corrupt and dishonest as it is so when you mix in Politics, it creates the worst kind of low-life, corrupt, power hungry, lying monster...).

Most latin american countries are new democracies, a generation and a half at most; i guess there are teething problems in any new venture...

[Justin Trullinger]

Interesting article, although I find the pro-privatisation bias a little weird. (Privatisation of public services generally hasn't been a good thing as far as I've seen in Latin America. By a long shot.)

Winston Churchill said that democracy was the worst for of government there is, except for all the others. I sort of agree with that.

Some ideas as to why democracy in Latin America hasn't been the Ideal Experiment in Democracy:

Education levels stink. I'm not blaming the people who, after all, suffer most from their own low level of education. But people who don't read well, don't read newspapers well. And don't read politicians past biographies, to know where these people really stand. People who don't understand politics or economics are easily mislead, and their voting reflects this. Hence, some really stupid decisions have been taken by the voting public.

And, when people don't know what's what and are easy to manipulate, the media can control them. The media is often controlled by the elite, whose interests are NOT the same as the man on the street. Which is one reason why LA has been plagued by presidents and governments of the privileged class, by the privileged class, and for the privileged class. Not good.

And then the foreign interests. Nothing buys good publicity like money does. And an awful lot of the money in LA is controlled by foreign powers. (US, big multinationals, etc) In many countries, it's hard for a candidate to get in without the support of the US embassy. And I hate to be crass, but we don't select people to look after their own interests. The candidate the US supports is the one they think will best protect US interests. Maybe sometimes local interests and US interests coincide. Fine. But many times they don't, and when people see their (US backed, $$$ supported) elected government take steps against their own interests, it turns them off on the value of electing a government.

And of course, the foreign (and local) media, which may not fully respect the democratic process. Chavez is a good example of this. I'm not going to go into "Bolivarianism." (Not sure how to spell it in English, and not relevant to my point.) But Chavez was ELECTED. By a margin that Bush or Blair would cream in their jeans if they got. And yet, media outlets in Venezuela and abroad characterize him as a dictator, a tyrant, and, my favourite, a thug. And call for his assasination. It's as if the media feels that the people's decision isn't valid if they, the media, disagree. And it doesn't give people the warm fuzzies about their right to vote, either.

Just some ideas...

Hope to hear more,
Justin

[matttheboy]

The problem here in Argentina is that the whole political system is absolutely rotten to the core. Corruption is endemic. If this country was run by the Chileans, it'd be one of the most powerful countries in the world. Unfortunately, it's run by a few caudillos, local strongmen who wield way too much control over their fiefdoms. They control the media and the people of their province and do not tolerate criticism. This includes President Kirshner who, despite presiding over a spectacular economic recovery, runs the country like his own private plaything.

The corruption was seen in the recent elections and exposed by a local TV news channel. In Tucuman, the guy running for senator basically bought and bribed votes by offering everything from new electrical goods to food packages in return for votes (his henchmen took voters' ID cards and returned them only after the elections had taken place. People who refused were threatened.). The presenter of the programme rhetorically asked at the end of the show:

"And what has been done about this outrage? Otra vez, absolutamente nada."

I think the reason that many people have a problem with Chavez is that, yes, he is spending huge amounts of money on (very effective) social programmes but it's rather like buying support. He's basically spending every single dollar of the the country's money to ensure that he is supported by the population. What happens if the price of oil drops or the money starts to run out is anyone's guess. Mine is major social disorder. There'll be no money around to back up his programmes because he'll have spent it all. Let's hope it doesn't happen. Another reason Chavez is unpopular is his stupidly inflammatory remarks. They really don't help his cause with the first world countries that might otherwise support his social programmes but are scared off by his rhetoric.

[Guy Courchesne]

In Mexico, real democracy is still in its infancy, at 5 years old now. Previously, this country had what they like to call 'the perfect dictatorship', where one political party had the presidency, congress, the states, and even most mayorships. The hold started to loosen in the late 80's.

I think that one of the problems here with democracy is that coming as a whiplash after an all-powerful presidency, congress and the parties haven't yet learned the subtleties of negotiation in a fractured house. No party wants to be seen as giving in to another parties demands, so no one comes to the negotiating table. Poor Vicente Fox, lame duck president from day 2, can't get anything through congress.

Moonraven would tear a strip off me for that.

In the 70's and 80's, parts of Latin America were an ideological battleground between communism and captialism, with both sides engaging in heavy-handed tactics, at the expense of the people. With the Soviets no longer an influence, I wonder where the left-wing ideology gets its strength from, and how long it can last unsupported by a major power.

[mahajosh]

Good article, the pro market bias (and the price) are the only things that keep me from subscribing to The Economist, because it�s definitely a good source of information.

Here in Peru, as they said in the article, there�s a scarily huge part of the population that wants Fujimori to come back. The fact that he�s wanted by Interpol, the BILLIONS of dollars that he stole, the coup he orquestrated against the rest of the government in 93, etc. don�t seem to matter. The country�s economy is even better off under Toledo, but the price of gas keeps going up (as everywhere, except Venezuela, obviously) and a lot of people seem to blame him.

The other part that�s really interesting politically here is the hatred of Eliane Karp, the first lady. SHe�s even more hated than Hillary was in the heartland (don�t know if many of you guys were around for that). The "scandals" she�s been involved in are pathetic (she was earning $50,000 a year working for Citibank while first lady, she heads up the comission on Afro-Peruvians, Amazonians, and Serranos while not even being Peruvian).

A lot of the absoulete hatred of the President and his wife seems to be racial (he�s a serrano Indian, she�s Jewish). I�m not saying he�s some enlightened leader, but he should be judged on his own merits and at least was elected (unlike Fujimori the second time around).

I�ve never seen opinion polls like his, though, most of the time his approval is in the single digits!! Wouldn�t it be nice to see Bush that way....even 10,000 dead in Iraq wouldn�t do it, I don�t think.

That said, I can�t seriously imagine a coup here....though they only passed back to democracy in 2000, it would be hard in today�s international climate....right?

[Guy Courchesne]

[YanquiQuilme�o]

The most anti-American country remains Argentina, which has long had difficult relations with the United States (except for an interlude in the 1990s).

Why have the US and Argentina had difficult relations for a long time? I understand what's happened since 2001, but what happened between the US and Argentina in the 1980's and before? I confess my ignorance.

Almost everyone I've met here who is 30 or younger thinks: Bush BAD, America BAD, capitalism BAD, etc. I don't like Bush either, but when I try to engage anyone under 30 (including my boyfriend) in a politcal conversation, no one seems to know much about anything. No one really seems to know any concrete details about international politics. I'll talk about North Korea, the earthquake in Pakistan, the oil-for-food scandal at the UN, the Summit of the Americas, etc., and all I get are blank stares. People here only seem to be interested in conspiracy theories and rumors.

It's the same with tennis. Every time an Argentine gets caught doping (at this point it's been 5 or 6 in the last 4 years), most Argentines act like it's some American conspiracy against the Argentine tennis players. "Andre Agassi and Andy Roddick dope, but the US controls everything and makes sure they don't get caught. or ... ESPN makes more money when Americans play in Grand Slam finals so they are using their money to get all the good Argentine players banned, etc. etc."

Yes, I suppose it's Bush's fault that Ca�as can't give any reasonable explanation why he had a banned substance in both his urine samples and that absolutely no one can corroborate his flimsy story that a doctor prescribed him the medicine at a tournament in Mexico. Not to mention the prescription and the doctor cannot be found, nor that the "medicine" found in his urine would have made any cold or flu worse, not better.

[RyanS]

Yes, sorry that you're so enlightened about world issues. Some people think in the US that the US government is working with aliens. Just like some Argentinians think its a conspiracy theory that the US government is trying to ruin tennis player's lives. But if you want to make people from Argentina seem foolish go ahead. I mean Canadians think we are peacekeepers(since the founding of the UN), we all know thats a load of bs if you just look for a second at Haiti, Afganistan, Somolia, Korea, Syria, Palestine, or Yugoslavia to name a few.

Capitalism and Bush are certainly bad. America as a concept isn't bad, as a name to the policies the United State preforms on Latin America it certainly is bad. The United States of America is a political entity not magical word that means nothing. What it represents as a political entity is disgusting.

What is anti-americanism? Everyone says oh they are "anti-american", what defines anti-americanism, is it a hatred for US foreign policy or ecomonic policy? Certainly there are some who hate people for being American and this prejudice isn't right. I mean americans do the same though, hate people just for being Mexican I don't see Mexico screaming out man United States is an "Anti-Mexican" country, these people are so "Anti-Mexican"! Or Canadians adopting similar slogans or whatever. Can Americans be Anti-American?

This idealogy of Anti-Americanism is definately a political invention there are a few examples in reality where people just hate america because it is so. But these people have limited political education and its very doubtful are capable of organizing anything worth mention.

I recall communists in the United States being "Anti-American". Is having political beliefs different then the government which supposed political belief is "Freedom of speech and assembly" Anti-American?

Okay I will stop now.

[mack4289]

this is for Ryan, who said "Capitalism and Bush are certainly bad" and "What [the US] represents as a political entity is disgusting". Those kind of things are so obvious you dont need to offer a single specific reason why. http://www.theonion.com/content/node/42384

[RyanS]

Ya, theres no reason why. America has never done anything wrong ever. Later on tonight I'll offer you some lies about capitalism, like the poverty and war it causes. Because everyone knows poverty doesn't exist. God damn pinkos.
The following list never happened:

(The following is a partial list of U.S. military interventions from 1890 to 2003. This guide does not include:

* mobilizations of the National Guard
* offshore shows of naval strength
* reinforcements of embassy personnel
* the use of non-Defense Department personnel (such as the Drug Enforcement Administration)
* military exercises
* non-combat mobilizations (such as replacing postal strikers)
* the permanent stationing of armed forces
* covert actions where the U.S. did not play a command and control role
* the use of small hostage rescue units
* most uses of proxy troops
* U.S. piloting of foreign warplanes
* foreign disaster assistance
* military training and advisory programs not involving direct combat
* civic action programs
* and many other military activities. )

SOUTH DAKOTA 1890 (-?) Troops 300 Lakota Indians massacred at Wounded Knee.
ARGENTINA 1890 Troops Buenos Aires interests protected.
CHILE 1891 Troops Marines clash with nationalist rebels.
HAITI 1891 Troops Black revolt on Navassa defeated.
IDAHO 1892 Troops Army suppresses silver miners' strike.
HAWAII 1893 (-?) Naval, troops Independent kingdom overthrown, annexed.
CHICAGO 1894 Troops Breaking of rail strike, 34 killed.
NICARAGUA 1894 Troops Month-long occupation of Bluefields.
CHINA 1894-95 Naval, troops Marines land in Sino-Japanese War
KOREA 1894-96 Troops Marines kept in Seoul during war.
PANAMA 1895 Troops, naval Marines land in Colombian province.
NICARAGUA 1896 Troops Marines land in port of Corinto.
CHINA 1898-1900 Troops Boxer Rebellion fought by foreign armies.
PHILIPPINES 1898-1910 (-?) Naval, troops Seized from Spain, killed 600,000 Filipinos
CUBA 1898-1902 (-?) Naval, troops Seized from Spain, still hold Navy base.
PUERTO RICO 1898 (-?) Naval, troops Seized from Spain, occupation continues.
GUAM 1898 (-?) Naval, troops Seized from Spain, still use as base.
MINNESOTA 1898 (-?) Troops Army battles Chippewa at Leech Lake.
NICARAGUA 1898 Troops Marines land at port of San Juan del Sur.
SAMOA 1899 (-?) Troops Battle over succession to throne.
NICARAGUA 1899 Troops Marines land at port of Bluefields.
IDAHO 1899-1901 Troops Army occupies Coeur d'Alene mining region.
OKLAHOMA 1901 Troops Army battles Creek Indian revolt.
PANAMA 1901-14 Naval, troops Broke off from Colombia 1903, annexed Canal Zone 1914.
HONDURAS 1903 Troops Marines intervene in revolution.
DOMINICAN REPUBLIC 1903-04 Troops U.S. interests protected in Revolution.
KOREA 1904-05 Troops Marines land in Russo-Japanese War.
CUBA 1906-09 Troops Marines land in democratic election.
NICARAGUA 1907 Troops "Dollar Diplomacy" protectorate set up.
HONDURAS 1907 Troops Marines land during war with Nicaragua
PANAMA 1908 Troops Marines intervene in election contest.
NICARAGUA 1910 Troops Marines land in Bluefields and Corinto.
HONDURAS 1911 Troops U.S. interests protected in civil war.
CHINA 1911-41 Naval, troops Continuous occupation with flare-ups.
CUBA 1912 Troops U.S. interests protected in civil war.
PANAMA 1912 Troops Marines land during heated election.
HONDURAS 1912 Troops Marines protect U.S. economic interests.
NICARAGUA 1912-33 Troops, bombing 10-year occupation, fought guerillas
MEXICO 1913 Naval Americans evacuated during revolution.
DOMINICAN REPUBLIC 1914 Naval Fight with rebels over Santo Domingo.
COLORADO 1914 Troops Breaking of miners' strike by Army.
MEXICO 1914-18 Naval, troops Series of interventions against nationalists.
HAITI 1914-34 Troops, bombing 19-year occupation after revolts.
DOMINICAN REPUBLIC 1916-24 Troops 8-year Marine occupation.
CUBA 1917-33 Troops Military occupation, economic protectorate.
WORLD WAR I 1917-18 naval, troops Ships sunk, fought Germany for 1 1/2 years.
RUSSIA 1918-22 Naval, troops Five landings to fight Bolsheviks
PANAMA 1918-20 Troops "Police duty" during unrest after elections.
HONDURAS 1919 Troops Marines land during election campaign.
YUGOSLAVIA 1919 Troops/Marines intervene for Italy against Serbs in Dalmatia.
GUATEMALA 1920 Troops 2-week intervention against unionists.
WEST VIRGINIA 1920-21 Troops, bombing Army intervenes against mineworkers.
TURKEY 1922 Troops Fought nationalists in Smyrna.
CHINA 1922-27 Naval, troops Deployment during nationalist revolt.
HONDURAS 1924-25 Troops Landed twice during election strife.
PANAMA 1925 Troops Marines suppress general strike.
CHINA 1927-34 Troops Marines stationed throughout the country.
EL SALVADOR 1932 Naval Warships send during Marti revolt.
WASHINGTON DC 1932 Troops Army stops WWI vet bonus protest.
WORLD WAR II 1941-45 Naval, troops, bombing, nuclear Hawaii bombed, fought Japan, Italy and Germay for 3 years; first nuclear war.
DETROIT 1943 Troops Army put down Black rebellion.
IRAN 1946 Nuclear threat Soviet troops told to leave north.
YUGOSLAVIA 1946 Nuclear threat, naval Response to shoot-down of US plane.
URUGUAY 1947 Nuclear threat Bombers deployed as show of strength.
GREECE 1947-49 Command operation U.S. directs extreme-right in civil war.
GERMANY 1948 Nuclear Threat Atomic-capable bombers guard Berlin Airlift.
CHINA 1948-49 Troops/Marines evacuate Americans before Communist victory.
PHILIPPINES 1948-54 Command operation CIA directs war against Huk Rebellion.
PUERTO RICO 1950 Command operation Independence rebellion crushed in Ponce.
KOREA 1951-53 (-?) Troops, naval, bombing , nuclear threats U.S./So. Korea fights China/No. Korea to stalemate; A-bomb threat in 1950, and against China in 1953. Still have bases.
IRAN 1953 Command Operation CIA overthrows democracy, installs Shah.
VIETNAM 1954 Nuclear threat French offered bombs to use against seige.
GUATEMALA 1954 Command operation, bombing, nuclear threat CIA directs exile invasion after new gov't nationalized U.S. company lands; bombers based in Nicaragua.
EGYPT 1956 Nuclear threat, troops Soviets told to keep out of Suez crisis; Marines evacuate foreigners.
LEBANON l958 Troops, naval Marine occupation against rebels.
IRAQ 1958 Nuclear threat Iraq warned against invading Kuwait.
CHINA l958 Nuclear threat China told not to move on Taiwan isles.
PANAMA 1958 Troops Flag protests erupt into confrontation.
VIETNAM l960-75 Troops, naval, bombing, nuclear threats Fought South Vietnam revolt & North Vietnam; one million killed in longest U.S. war; atomic bomb threats in l968 and l969.
LAOS 1962 Command operation Military buildup during guerrilla war.
CUBA l961 Command operation CIA-directed exile invasion fails.
GERMANY l961 Nuclear threat Alert during Berlin Wall crisis.
CUBA l962 Nuclear threat, naval Blockade during missile crisis; near-war with Soviet Union.
PANAMA l964 Troops Panamanians shot for urging canal's return.
INDONESIA l965 Command operation Million killed in CIA-assisted army coup.
DOMINICAN REPUBLIC 1965-66 Troops, bombing Marines land during election campaign.
GUATEMALA l966-67 Command operation Green Berets intervene against rebels.
DETROIT l967 Troops Army battles Blacks, 43 killed.
UNITED STATES l968 Troops After King is shot; over 21,000 soldiers in cities.
CAMBODIA l969-75 Bombing, troops, naval Up to 2 million killed in decade of bombing, starvation, and political chaos.
OMAN l970 Command operation U.S. directs Iranian marine invasion.
LAOS l971-73 Command operation, bombing U.S. directs South Vietnamese invasion; "carpet-bombs" countryside.
SOUTH DAKOTA l973 Command operation Army directs Wounded Knee siege of Lakotas.
MIDEAST 1973 Nuclear threat World-wide alert during Mideast War.
CHILE 1973 Command operation CIA-backed coup ousts elected marxist president.
CAMBODIA l975 Troops, bombing Gas captured ship, 28 die in copter crash.
ANGOLA l976-92 Command operation CIA assists South African-backed rebels.
IRAN l980 Troops, nuclear threat, aborted bombing Raid to rescue Embassy hostages; 8 troops die in copter-plane crash. Soviets warned not to get involved in revolution.
LIBYA l981 Naval jets Two Libyan jets shot down in maneuvers.
EL SALVADOR l981-92 Command operation, troops Advisors, overflights aid anti-rebel war, soldiers briefly involved in hostage clash.
NICARAGUA l981-90 Command operation, naval CIA directs exile (Contra) invasions, plants harbor mines against revolution.
LEBANON l982-84 Naval, bombing, troops Marines expel PLO and back Phalangists, Navy bombs and shells Muslim positions.
GRENADA l983-84 Troops, bombing Invasion four years after revolution.
HONDURAS l983-89 Troops Maneuvers help build bases near borders.
IRAN l984 Jets Two Iranian jets shot down over Persian Gulf.
LIBYA l986 Bombing, naval Air strikes to topple nationalist gov't.
BOLIVIA 1986 Troops Army assists raids on cocaine region.
IRAN l987-88 Naval, bombing US intervenes on side of Iraq in war.
LIBYA 1989 Naval jets Two Libyan jets shot down.
VIRGIN ISLANDS 1989 Troops St. Croix Black unrest after storm.
PHILIPPINES 1989 Jets Air cover provided for government against coup.
PANAMA 1989 (-?) Troops, bombing Nationalist government ousted by 27,000 soldiers, leaders arrested, 2000+ killed.
LIBERIA 1990 Troops Foreigners evacuated during civil war.
SAUDI ARABIA 1990-91 Troops, jets Iraq countered after invading Kuwait. 540,000 troops also stationed in Oman, Qatar, Bahrain, UAE, Israel.
IRAQ 1990-? Bombing, troops, naval Blockade of Iraqi and Jordanian ports, air strikes; 200,000+ killed in invasion of Iraq and Kuwait; no-fly zone over Kurdish north, Shiite south, large-scale destruction of Iraqi military.
KUWAIT 1991 Naval, bombing, troops Kuwait royal family returned to throne.
LOS ANGELES 1992 Troops Army, Marines deployed against anti-police uprising.
SOMALIA 1992-94 Troops, naval, bombing U.S.-led United Nations occupation during civil war; raids against one Mogadishu faction.
YUGOSLAVIA 1992-94 Naval NATO blockade of Serbia and Montenegro.
BOSNIA 1993-? Jets, bombing No-fly zone patrolled in civil war; downed jets, bombed Serbs.
HAITI 1994-? Troops, naval Blockade against military government; troops restore President Aristide to office three years after coup.
ZAIRE (CONGO) 1996-97 Troops Marines at Rwandan Hutu refugee camps, in area where Congo revolution begins.
LIBERIA 1997 Troops Soldiers under fire during evacuation of foreigners.
ALBANIA 1997 Troops Soldiers under fire during evacuation of foreigners.
SUDAN 1998 Missiles Attack on pharmaceutical plant alleged to be "terrorist" nerve gas plant.
AFGHANISTAN 1998 Missiles Attack on former CIA training camps used by Islamic fundamentalist groups alleged to have attacked embassies.
IRAQ 1998-? Bombing, Missiles Four days of intensive air strikes after weapons inspectors allege Iraqi obstructions.
YUGOSLAVIA 1999 Bombing, Missiles Heavy NATO air strikes after Serbia declines to withdraw from Kosovo. NATO occupation of Kosovo.
YEMEN 2000 Naval USS Cole bombed.
MACEDONIA 2001 Troops NATO forces deployed to move and disarm Albanian rebels.
UNITED STATES 2001 Jets, naval Reaction to hijacker attacks on New York, DC
AFGHANISTAN 2001-? Troops, bombing, missiles Massive U.S. mobilization to overthrow Taliban, hunt Al Qaeda fighters, install Karzai regime. Forces also engaged in neighboring Pakistan.
YEMEN 2002 Missiles Predator drone missile attack on Al Qaeda, including a US citizen.
PHILIPPINES 2002 Troops, naval Training mission for Philippine military fighting Muslim Abu Sayyaf rebels evolves into US combat missions in Sulu Archipelago next to Mindanao.
COLOMBIA 2003-? Troops US special forces sent to rebel zone to back up Colombian military protecting oil pipeline.
IRAQ 2003-? Troops, naval, bombing, missiles Second Gulf War launched for "regime change" in Baghdad. US, joined by UK and Australia, attacks from Kuwait, other Gulf states, and European and US bases.

[Guy Courchesne]

[mack4289]

holy christ man how long did it take you to write that list? i wouldve read the whole list but ive been too busy shopping at walmart, polluting the environment, spreading mad-cow disease and supressing the teeming masses of the impoverished. but it looked impressive

[vivaBarca]

[Perpetual Traveller]

No, no, we save that for the weekends, as a special treat!

PT

[mack4289]

alright ill try to make a serious argument here. honestly im not sure if i know enough to be able to say with any conviction if america is, on the whole, good or bad. but i do believe that america is more than a list of the horrible things its done. for instance, im living in south korea right now. if not for america, south korea would most likely be living under north korea's government (or at least would have in the past). whatever the flaws in capitalism and democracy, i hope we can agree that living under an american system beats living in north korea. so how does america's intervention in korea fit in with the idea that america is bad?
or how about freedom of the press, freedom of religion, freedom of speech? theyve all been unevenly applied (if at all) at different points in america's history, but they're worthy goals to try to live up to.
another point: if america is so bad, why do thousands of people risk their life every year to try to come there? why do mexicans and south americans pay smugglers outrageous fees and cross the desert to come to a place as unjust and unfair as america? why do cubans (who dont even have to live under the yoke of capitalism) build rafts and come across the ocean to america?
one more point: america contributes a paltry percentage of their gdp as aid to poor countries, something like .016 percent. they are harshly criticized for this and rightly so. european countries contribute a significantly higher percentage. but at the latest round of wto talks, america proposed cutting the biggest farm subsidies by something like 90%, which would allow poor countries a much better chance to compete in the international agricultural market. european countries countered with an offer of a 60% reduction, with a clause to allow them to exempt certain crops from the rules. so its not as simple as europe helps the poor and america doesnt.
so my point is not that america is great or even good. its much more complicated than saying america is bad or america is good. if you dont know that then you dont know what youre talking about or youre way too focused on just one side of the issue or youre dishonest.