Job Discussion Forums

[Russell123]

Okay, I've been digging around a bit in these forums but haven't been able to find many suggestions for getting a group of rowdy kindergartners back once they've passed that maddening threshold. I'm still new at all this, but I'm usually pretty good at keeping them interested and relatively sane, but sometimes, whether I'm having an off day or the school put something in their rice-porridge or whatever, the class just descends into chaos.

I have a particularly rowdy class of older kindergartners, with a less-than-helpful Chinese teacher who often disappears for the entire duration of my lesson. Today they were wired before I even got there. I immediately lowered the volume of my teaching style, which will often work for this class (no dice), and I then tried to get them moving, doing songs and chants (even less dice - they just reverted into a wriggling mass of leg-hugging, hitting, chair-climbing, giggling demons as soon as I tried to start the actual lesson.)

I plodded along and somehow got them back near the end, but only after the Chinese teacher realized I wasn't going to continue teaching until the class settled down a bit and shouted some sharp commands, which got their attention. The rest of the class they were fine, but I would love to know some shortcuts or techniques for getting them back myself, without depending on the little dictators.

Help?

[vikdk]

you must have a focus point - a carrot - that captures the childrens attention. If "misbehaving" is the dominant culture in the "classroom" then the kids have created a more intersting happening than yours. They aint stupid you know - they're doing the kind of stuff we'd love to do - but are programmed not to - when we're bored out of minds in some lecture or film.
Think of your lesson as a space - fill it with something that is approriatly interesting to the age group of children who you will be sharing it with - think how you are going to keep this interest level going for the duration of your class - think of what works in other lessons and can be repeated again and again and again - think of how much new you can put into the old -think of how you can communicate to those kids (the smallest have limited Chinese] easy to understand body langauge (and in my books) a good assistant are essential - last of all think of teaching English.
There is a very quick fix to your problem - but to be able to achieve it takes a lot of planning - take a look at the help kindergarten thread on page 3 - there are some good tips if you get past the petty argument. And remember the great strength of a wanted carrot is that it can be taken away if things don't go to your liking, only being returned for your version of good behaviour. But I'm afraid to reach that state takes time - so I'm afraid perceverience is the name of the game right now.
Of course there is also the pavlovs dog method - which I think you witness when the local teach comes in, and surely results in some of the seemingly lifeless students that seem to typify much of Chinese education. so for the sake of the Children, and maybe your own sanity, don't follow the road of hard discipline - a practise i find very inapproriate for this field of education.

[vikdk]

Hey sorry russel I reread your post, and saw the problem lay with older kids -I've had this kinda prob with older classes as well. You can put this behavior down to testing their wings and getting to know which dog barks and which bites. They are playing in your class - playing with you, experimenting on how much they can get away with before the dragon comes back - they know full well that you can't do a shit, all the screaming in the world is the just the water off a ducks back. You actually can't blame 'em - since they've been so restricted by normal kindergarten passivity that they naturally grasp any chance for stretching out.
To get this to stop that carrot needs to be very tasty- I used stories in these type of lessons - make them up myself (which I know isn't much help to you) because trad fairy tales and kids stories after you've got through the favorites (which have all been heard before) start to be pretty boring. But on the net there are places to find stories, just again a job weeding the good from the krap.
Telling stories also needs a flare for dramatics and a good AT - if teaching English is important then you can also teach a vocab list at the start.
After I started doing this with my trouble classes the problems I had were greatly reduced, in fact I could get back to normal activities and games afterwards, throwing in stories as an occasional treat. But recently I have been going back to stories for those classes where the children can now speak enough English to be able to practice using story dialogue and answer questions relating to the plot.

[kev7161]

My first graders, who are probably close in age to your kindergartners, also have some especially rowdy days. Now, I watch their Chinese teacher teach them Chinese. There's writing and reading and so on. No games, no songs, not much outside of the taught curriculum. Their behavior for her is almost flawless (although she claims, when I complain, that they are just as "naughty" for her as for me). She's not too harsh with them, but will have a sharp word should someone be getting out of line.

It's not a matter of they can understand her, but not me, because we are way beyond that now. Not all my classes are coloring, balloons, daffodils, and songs. Sometimes we have to have the nitty-gritty lessons (we're working on long "i" sound right now and two-digit subtraction in math). It's just my kids are definitely more talkative and squirmy and out of their seats when I'm teaching.

At the beginning of the term, they were taught when I say "1-2-3!", they respond with "Sit up straight!" and when I say "A-B-C!", they respond with "Be quiet!" Now they sort of half-heartedly respond and rarely actually do the actions. When we do play games or do non-lesson-y activities, it's sometimes hard to get them to be quiet long enough to listen and watch the instructions. Then the activity can turn into chaos.

However, saying all that, they are generally better than the first couple of months. There are some definite leaders and definite followers. It's just sometimes I don't want those leaders to . . . lead.

[Roger]

I have noticed that kindergarteners come in different forms and with different behavioral patterns; maybe this reflects their social background. Rowdy kids tend to have laissez-faire parents with too much money and zero interest in their own progeny but an inflated ego that dictates that "I am this kid's mother and I buy this sort of education - you have to obey me in exchange for my money!"

IF the kindergarten is disorganised, its classes unstructured and parents are free to interrupt the lessons, then it might be in your interest to reconsider your job.

Of course, in the final analysis a lot depends on you too. Are you comfortable with kids this size and age? Can you relate to them? Are your lessons organically structured?

A Chinese kinergarten is far removed from what we would call a 'kindergarten'; it is above all a pre-school school, an advance bootcamp where parents put their child in order to give him or her a head start over their less-fortunate peers whose parents cannot afford to enrol them at a kindy.

Kindergartens are an elite tool in the hands of uncaring, unscrupulous educationalists that are interested in making money - not many questions asked as to how that is being done!

[Sextus]

I still shudder to think of it.

Three years ago, I taught a Winter Camp organised, privately, by my then employers' Foreign Affairs Officer. She was a nice enough woman and I more or less trusted her. Five days. 8:30 to 4:00. 1000 RMB / day. How bad could it possibly be?

It was as bad as it could possibly have been. From the moment I walked in the door I could see we were all in big trouble. There were hundreds and hundreds of kids. Kids running. Kids skipping. Kids jumping. Kids crying. Kids pulling out each others' hair. Kids baying for blood. I don't know if you've ever been to the Oktoberfest, but if you can imagine a biertent there filled with midgets, that was exactly what it was like. Minus the leather. Minus the trombones. But not, I must say, minus the beer: I noted that the Chinese staff were passing round a bottle. At 8:20. On a Monday morning.

I didn't see much of the Chinese staff for the first morning. I'm fairly sure one of them just left, and the other four were hiding in the staffroom while the kids did "exercises". My class was horrendous. Heinous. sixty baby crocodiles. Sixty wolfcubs. They snarled and hissed and snapped and fought each other in just the way young predators do. At the back of the class, staring glassily into space, was my "monitor", a student who'd been drafted in from my university. One of my students. One of my worst students. I will never forget how her eyes narrowed when she caught sight of me. Had there been a thought bubble over her head, I'm pretty sure it would have contained the words "HA HA HA. REVENGE IS MINE"

So, I start singing. "If you're happy and you know it, clap your hands!" Blank looks all round. Monitor gives an focused, malicious grin. Momentary hush as kids look round. No. Sorry. Nobody understands that. Some shruggling. "If you're happy and you know it, clap your hands". One kid gets it. Clap clap, he goes. "If you're happy and you know it, and you really want to show it". And then the one kid who clapped is smacked in the ear by his deskmate. Yelping. General hilarity. Breakdown in law and order.

"Listen!" "Sit down!" No effect, but I do manage to catch the attention of a rat-like kid in a grimy tracksuit. Snotty nose and leaning back on his elbows. Weighing me up. He slides out of his chair and strolls towards me, until we are standing almost toe-to-toe. He jabs a grubby finger at my crotch.

"What," he demands, "are those?" And then he punches me really hard in the nuts.

I look up through my tears at the Monitor. She's almost crying too. With joy.

Anyway. It got worse. Imagine Lord of the Flies, post-conch. (There was, actually, a fat kid whose glasses got broken). Imagine Heart of Darkness, minus charismatic God-King. It was hell. I still have -- and this is God's own truth -- a scar on my crown from where one kid hit me with a metal pipe -- you know, the ones they make bike racks with. He didn't hit me very hard, but he did find it very, very funny.

I escaped. When the bell went, I walked down the stairs, across the playground, through the gates and into a taxi. I have never taught anyone under the age of 10 since. It is quite simply beyond me.

[vikdk]

Whatever we say about kindergartens we can't deny the need for such institutions - if not just to care for children during parents work hours but also to introduce children of single child families to a "children�s culture"(even if the so-called teachers try to dominate it). What we must do is try and show excellence in this area so as to convince the managers that quality is a marketable product. From my own experience this can work - although it�s always an uphill battle.
Unfortunately as far as FT influence is concerned, this field seems to have has been, saturated by appalling standards from our side, both in quality of work and the incredibly fast turnover over FT's - no wonder we have a hard time being taken as a serious force.

Rather than vent our anger at kindies we I should put more effort into trying to change this situation � one way of course by helping each other raise standards. If we need to vent anger, I'd much rather direct it at the mills -I mean these child torture institutions are completely unnecessary and open the floodgates for yet more potential educational vandalism on the under 10�s from the unsuited and uninterested.

[Russell123]

Sextus, I apologize for laughing at your misfortune, but thank you for the funniest post I've read at Dave's in a long, long time. Holy Sh*t! A metal pipe!

Kev - yes, the behaviour you described sounds exactly like my class. 1-2-3 Sit-up-straight! doesn't work.

Vikdk - thanks once again for your insights. I forgot to mention that the "bad classes" (as the CTs are apt to label them) are also the ones I see only once a week. This makes developing a rapport with them difficult, and teaching them in any kind of organic or cohent manner impossible. I'm lucky if they remember 1/5 of what I tell them each week, and the result is less progression and more repitition. The classes I teach even just twice a week are completely different and very well behaved even when I do have an off day. (Their teachers are also much more active and participate in the class often, which occasionally creates other problems...)

How do you tell stories to kids with such limited English?

And Roger - I do know they've lumped a bunch of the more rowdy and slower kids together, but the kindergarten itself is well-organised and the classes are never interupted. The kids themselves are from a variety of backgrounds, but there's not much I can do about that.

I love teaching kindergarteners, but I've still got a ton to learn. Creating an organically structured lesson...this is something I've been trying to do, but often without success. Any pointers you can give me?

It's very difficult when the school wants you to stick to the same awful book. I've reached the point where teaching them English has become secondary to keeping them interested (even though one usually leads to the other) and building their self-esteem...I wish I could teach them Orwell.

[mavazah]

Sextus, like Russell, I apologise for laughing at your misfortune. Well to be truthful the word laughing is a serious understatement of my behaviour when I read your post this morning. I shrieked with laughter until I cried, however I have been punished for my lack of compassion to a fellow tefler as at that time I had just taken a big swig of coffee and apart from nearly choking I managed to spray most of it onto the computer screen. Luckily I was in my flat at the time and not in the school office............
It made me grateful that I teach College students, all I do is confiscate truckloads of MP3s and mobile phones and so far all my body parts have remained unscathed......

[Girl Scout]

Questions:

How many students do you have?
How big is the room?

I had a class of 30+ 5 y.o. I divided them in half and put them on opposit sides of the room. I gave one half something boring to do, say writing the letter "i" or simple words with the letter, while I did something else with the other half. I forced my CT to do her job and monitor the first half. then I switched groups. My classes were three hours long. I didn't do this for the entire class, but it did provide me with at least an hour or more worth of teachable time and did a lot to improve my sanity.

[brsmith15]

Take the worst offender.
Bring him outside so all can see.
Strip him bare.
Cover him with honey.
Crucify him.
Run like hell.

[Louras]

The main thing with kindy, I found, is to keep them occupied. This is also a good workout for lazy bums like me. Let them run, jump, twist and turn. The moment there is time for any of the small minds to wander then the trouble starts. Also, when the chaos gets too much, you have to "jerk" (I wish it could be physically) them to a total stop! I always insist in having a Chinese teacher with me for the first 6 or so lessons. During these lessons you put in place measures of control that you can use when she is not there. Like a game of "Stop!". The last one to obey the command completely loses a point for his team. I always have two teams in these classes. Most of my discipline revolves around teams. The reward at the end of each class is for the winning team to chant "Winners winners yeah yeah yeah!" Pointing at the other team and then going "losers losers that's Ok!" Simple but effective.
My2c

[vikdk]

louras - you've got it mate - that kind of stuff you do makes that carrot so F'ing yummy that kids can figure out that some rules are worth keeping.
Remember at this age what we often perceive as being bad, is actually being good by following natural behaviour patterns - if i got a class of passive 5yo zombies then I'd worry. Kids around the age of 11 start to figure out our strange abstract world of seemingly pointless rule and self regulation - before that it's more black an white and self centered - I WANT IT GOOD NOT BAD.

to tell stories I have a good assistants who hav e faith in what i'm doing, and I make stories which incorporate lots of simple phrases and vocab - my christmas story was about a snowman who was rescued when the sun came out and put in a fridge - lots of everyday stuff there and simple in concept - easy to tell with flashcards and min of language and small amount of translation, but it takes practise.

[Roger]

Sorry to bring some rain in Sextus' parade, but I didn't find his tale that funny at all. If he found himself in such a quandary then he can't blame it on the kids alone!

I have never had such problems but then again, I will own up to the fact my kindergarten employers never burdened me with more than 35 kids; the regular class size was between 20 and 25; once I had a class of 17, and there was an inspection; the kindy then organised a cache-cache, hiding the kids and leaving one dayroom (they were not "classrooms") unoccupied, with toys carelessly having been left lying on the floor.On that day I learnt that officially, a kindergarten must enrol at least 25 kids per class (or was it 20?). Anything less than that is deemed "illegal" (! sic!).
But even when I had my full contingent of pupils I was seconded by their caretaker. Thus, one adult person was in charge of a maximum of 15 or so kids.

There were isolated cases of single kids that couldn't be bothered to take part in any lesson or activity; one such boy was a little tyrant that could throw a bad temper tantrum if provoked. Everyone in charge of instruction and day care left this boy to his own devices though they made sure he wasn['t going to hurt himself.
In time, however, this boy showed a great gift for various subjects including the use of computers (in our English Staff office he would use our computer) and even for English - if not forced to remain with his peers.

Key to success is understanding kids' needs; at this young age they are full of beans and difficult to control; they want to move about. This is why holding regular "classroom activities" is nearly impossible - it's possible sometimes but it gives the kids a bad foretaste of what school life is all about!
I suggest you think of TPR more eagerly!

[Henry_Cowell]