Job Discussion Forums

[Jizzo T. Clown]

I believe that e-dictionaries (or "translators") are a necessity for learners at the basic and beginning levels, but the other teachers in my department strictly forbid any student from using them.

Any arguments for or against the use of these? I'd like to convince my boss to let the students use them, if it's even a worthy cause.

[Ben Round de Bloc]

[Guy Courchesne]

I have had students here, executive types, who can't live without the little devices. I've tried to ween some students off them, but perhaps they are good tools to have outside the class.

oops. Wean not ween

[Super Mario]

East Asian students regard them as indispensible. I've known teachers who forbid them, but the students just get sneakier.
Two problems with them: they also contain games, so the boy [usually] looking at his dictionary could well be playing.
The other is that the cheaper models often only have one or two meanings for a word, whereas a decent Eng-Eng dictionary may have 8.
So I don't ban them, but do teach students how to properly use a paper dictionary, hopefully to wean them.

[ls650]

For most classes I don't feel dictionaries are necessary. I bring one or two to class with me just in case a word comes up that I don't know - but dictionaries are not always helpful anyhow.

For example, yesterday I asked my students to repeat some tongue twisters to practice pronunciation of 'Y', and one of the tongue-twisters was "Your mom made you eat your yellow yams." When my students asked me what a yam was, I looked it up in both dictionaries - but neither one had this word. I ended up drawing a picture and describing it, and my students then recognized what a yam is. (camote, fyi)

For exercises where I want the students to work with a lot of new vocabulary, I'll bring several dictionaries into the class from our library.

[denise]

When I was in Japan, I allowed them, and paper dictionaries, as well (which I much prefer!), but I stressed that they were a last resort. We would do a few days of practice with guessing vocabulary from context, word parts, etc., with the goal being that the students would learn not to be so friggin�dependent on their little dictionaries and learn to think. (Which Japanese students are not trained to do--it�s all memorization, mistakes are "bad," etc., so they don`t want to have to think. They`d rather just turn to their dictionaries as a quick fix and get the "right" answer.)

Then off I flew to South America, all ready to give the little vocabulary-guessing-dictionaries-should-be-a-last-resort lesson, only to find that in classes of 20, maybe 2 students had dictionaries (paper ones). I teach at a fairly upscale uni, so I doubt it`s the price that is holding them back. Rather, I think it`s because they know how to think and don`t need to rely on dictionaries--they`re like crutches, really.

But anyway, I do allow them. I`m just happy that nobody uses them!

d

[Sweetsee]

Denise,

Your post made so much sense to me. I have whole classes of students glued to those things, well not really, just the more introverted types, but I thought they relied on them because it meant they didn't have to talk to me, which is also true. And try as I may, they refuse to follow the lesson plan and text which are designed for them to raise their hands and ask for help. I let them be, though. I also noticed that my boss/partner never says anything without this device in front of him.


Enjoy,
s

[Irish]

I second Super Mario�s comments regarding electronic versus paper dictionaries. I used to allow students to use them in class but soon did away with them. There weren�t huge problems with students playing games instead of looking up words. However, there was a great difference in the quality of the translations, depending on what brand the students owned. Those who had paper dictionaries did much better at learning the vocabulary and produced better work. In the end, I decided to allow only paper dictionaries. Luckily my students aren�t too dependent on them. They�re pretty good about using context clues, word parts, etc. to discover meaning.

[denise]

Sweetsee--

It sounds like your boss/partner isn`t setting a very good example for the students! They need to be taught how to learn and think. Maybe he does, too! And he`s an English teacher? (Sorry, for all the crap that native speakers get for feeling that they are qualified solely by virtue of their passport--which I fully agree is not enough--at least they can speak the language! I expect native speaker teachers to be properly trained as teachers, but I also expect local teachers to be able to speak the language!!!)

d

[Gregor]

I tell students to bring their PAPER dictionaries to class, just in case, and then I absolutely forbid them to take them out and use them unless I specifically ask for it.
That sounds fascist and dogmatic, I suppose, but, really, what are we trying to accomplish here?
At low levels, I don't expect students to understand much. I am prepared to draw nouns (even "idea" nouns, like liberty, cost, hatred, love, etc.), verbs, even adjectives on the board. I say plenty of words they don't know. That's FINE. They aren't EXPECTED to know them. They are only expected to get used to being in an English-only environment while in my class. It's very much not easy for them, but I KNOW how hard it IS. I subject myself to this same thing myself, and it is not an unreasonable thing to ask a language learner to do. It's hard, and often a student isn't in the mood for it, but if the teacher and the class force it, the student will suck it up and do the gig.
Or else he/she will drop out eventually. But in my experience, the students usually rise to the occasion.

The thing is, they need to get used to having to deal with English. At the lower levels, it's WAY easy.

At higher levels, what more is there to do? It's really easy to lose sight of the fact that we are teaching English, and not, say, sociology or geology or whatever.

The point is, if you are focused at the level and abilities of the students, then there's no reason you can't explain unfamiliar vocabulary. Draw a picture. Use the word in context. Give the Ss. a synonym. ANYTHING but a translation or even a dictionary definition, even English to English.

And I have been known to back off on the mono-lingual English dictionary definitions when it's called for. In some cases, it's a useful expedient.

At low levels, though, NO. And at higher levels, ONLY English language dictionaries. Why?
Well, come on, folks, these people only spend a short amount of time with us. Again - even if the topic under discussion is geology, the students need, more than anything, an English-language environment.
We are not going to "teach" them grammar or vocabulary. If the students involved can understand the vocab. to the extent that they can have a reasonably intelligent conversation with it, then they are in good shape.
Do they understand a word a little bit wrong? OK. They have plenty of time to work it out on their own between classes.

Good example - I was in a conversation with some people in which the word "verisimilitude" came up. I had no idea what it meant, but during the discussion, I thought I had worked it out. I HAD, at least as far as I was able to continue the talk.
Later I went and looked it up, and discovered that I hadn't made a COMPLETE ass of myself. But the point is, this is what I want my students to do.
We can't teach them English, per se. What I mean is that, no matter how much we expose them to "correct usage," they will remember - or not - what they need to remember. They will use what they have the opportunity to use. No student, no matter how much he KNOWS, is going to USE everything correctly 100% of the time. So we need to put them in an environment that stretches them. But we can't expect them to take what they learn in class out into the world, right then and there.
THIS is why I don't focus so much on teaching particulars (though of course I do introduce, explain, and have students practice grammar). Instead, I just get them to talk, as much as possible.
We can do our jobs. We can expose them to English, and if we are professional, experienced and trained teachers, we can guide them toward correct usage - grammar, syntax, vocabulary, and so on, and do so in the context of our lessons.
The difference between a competent, professional teacher and a charlatan is in knowing what the students can and can't handle in the course of a lesson.

[Jizzo T. Clown]

Gregor,

Isn't using a paper dictionary a good thing?? It's sort of meta-cognitive in that the students are also improving their study skills (alphabetizing, looking up an unfamiliar word). I can see where you're coming from, but I have to disagree on not allowing students to use ANY dictionary whatsoever. Yes, there is a danger that they may come to rely on them, but as long as their use is regulated, I see no problems with this.

What about giving students dictionary exercises? Many times in the book, they encounter words they don't know (especially if your school has limited resources like mine and is forced to use the same book for both Intermediate and Beginning Levels), and if they're going to talk to each other in their L1 to work out the meaning anyway, why not allow them to look it up in an ESL Learner's dictionary or thesaurus?

And yes, teacher competence does come into play, but I'm sure we've all had students who just would not get it, no matter how much "dumbing down," artwork, oversimplifying, and circumlocution we give them. If students fail to grasp a concept, then we need to be sure that they understand it so we can move on with the TL. Sometimes they need their dictionary for that.

[Super Mario]

A good quality Eng-Eng dictionary with phonemics is a necessity for advanced students.

[denise]

Jizzo (Mr. Clown?),

Good post. I agree. Meaning that I agree with much of Gregor�s post, as well, but not the absolutism forbidding all dictionaries.

Gregor--your reasoning is very sound. The one addition I would make is that we need to be aware that so many students (at least those that I taught in Asia!) have ZERO tolerance for ambiguity. They want a perfectly correct answer, which for them means a dictionary (even though, as others have pointed out, those little electronic dictionaries sometimes produce some wacky entries!!).

In Japan, during vocabulary practice activities (which to me were really thinking practice activities--I really didn�t care if the students guessed the correct definition as long as they could tell me WHY they had guessed it), I would also forbid dictionaries. I would tell them that they could check their guesses during the last five minutes of class. As soon as those last five minutes rolled around, they all dove straight into their dictionaries, as though they didn�t see the value in the thinking that they had just done. Made me really sad...

d

[Gregor]

Denise, Jizzo, I agree with you both.
I was exaggerating to make a point. Although I really do discourage them, and I forbid them unless there is particular permission for this or that instance.
I grant that permission in almost every class. It's just that I want to help them form habits - figuring things out in context, finding out what one another knows about a word using spoken English, that sort of thing.
And at beginning levels - well, we have graded materials. They encounter words they don't know, but if the word is outside what should be reasonable for them to work out perfectly, then they need to work AROUND it.

This is also a skill - you don't NEED to know every word to get the gist. This is something that Chinese students have a difficult time with. They think they need to know, specifically, that "it" (for example) is a pronoun that refers back to this other noun over here. If you don't tell them this, it will drive them nuts...until they get used to the fact that they simply DON'T need to recognize and understand every single collection of letters.

That's all I'm saying. We should be very aware of when they use the dictionaries, and how, and what for. Dictionary skills are, of course, good things to teach.

Electronic dictionaries? Absolutely not. I bloody HATE those things.