Job Discussion Forums

[manonatrain]

to Italy in terms of being hit on.

italy is not the muslim world. you cannot tell the guy to *beep* off.
How the hell can you compare Italy with a Muslim country.
Maybe Turkey, but not the Gulf.

It is illegal to tell someone to *beep* off, but it is the Westerner who
will be punished. Dont believe me I will have a Doctor friend of
mine from the UAE email you his storie of giving someone the finger
while driving.

You are clearly not in touch with the locals on any deep level.

As a man, I find it easier, but not easy. When I see the women
getting stared at and hit on... i can imagine what it must be like.


And I do not hate all brits and yanks. I hate drunken piss heads
who belong to the drink drink drink club. My choice if you don�t mind.
Americans, the referal was only in how righteous they can be at times.
But generally I prefer them to Brits. More open and friendly and
always up for an adventure.

Why are so many tefl teachers fall down drunks ? It is depressing.

[Cleopatra]

I can't help thinking that a few posters have gotton a little carried away with this sexual harrassment thing, so I'd like to add a female perspective. Granted, I live in KSA, not the UAE, but I'd imagine things are pretty similar in this regard.

Sure, sexual harrassment here is bad, but it's not THAT bad!!! Certainly, it's never stopped me from walking around town alone -even in the evening - and yes, I do get curb-crawled and have guys shouting at me from their cars and so on. Yes, it is annoying, and constant, but I don't think it's dangerous. I also don't think the type of harrassment you get in Gulf countries is as intimidating as what you get in places like Turkey where men will follow you on foot for hours on end, sit next to you and even try to touch you. I suppose we have strict Saudi segregatin rules to thank for that - they must be good for something! For the same reason, any hassle you get at work is also likely to be low-key - if it happens at all.

I'm aware that, unfortunately, Asian and other dark skinned women are treated with less respect than "Westerners". However, I've not heard too many stories of really bad harrassment from my many Philippina colleagues. I'm not saying it doesn't happen - and certainly there are too many reliable horror stories about housemaids being abused - but let's keep things in proportion.

In short, I think the clai that sexual harassment makes 'life hell' for Asian women seems to be a gross exaggeration.

[grand fromage]

Cleopatra, thanks for putting it all in perspective from a woman's point of view. I didn't mean for my discussion to get out of hand, but I'd hate for people to only get an extreme view of this region. Stay safe in KSA!

[manonatrain]

in ksa all women western or not may not travel
alone. may not go without an abbyah (spelling).
So how do they get to see you honey.

Just because the Grand Fromage is out of touch with
the locals doesnt make his information correct. It makes
it uninformed and dangerous.

Sure nothing might happen but again, hell is so personal.
I doubt you would enjoy being a Pilipian women in the UAE
or Oman. Look how blondes are treated, like RUSSIANS,
wether they are or not.

[grand fromage]

I rest my case-womanonatrain seems to be on a mission. Y'all prospective travelers to this region, male or female, can draw your own conclusions. I'm sure you've heard enough from me at least on this topic.

[Cleopatra]

Grand fromage,

You are right - manonatrain seems to have his mind made up and will not listen to anyone else's perspective.

I agree that this topic has got out of hand but I'd like to correct a few misconceptions:

1) Women - incl. Saudis - CAN in fact travel alone in KSA. They just need a letter from their husband or, in our case, sponser.

2) Yes, we do have to wear abayas and headscarves but that doesn't stop any Saudi man! YOU might think 'there's nothing to see' but Saudis are so used to seeing women veiled from head to toe that the sight of a bare faced woman on the street is a real thrill for them! Even more interestingly, the times I've got most hassle from men is when I've been completely covered - face and all. I reckon they assume I'm Saudi and so are even more intrigued by what might lay behind the veil.

3) If you read my post, you'll have seen that I strongly object to the way some Asian women are treated in the Gulf countries. The worst off are the housemaids, but most of the Philippinas I know - mainly nurses - seem to be quite happy here. Hell indeed is very personal - why should you assume your idea of it is ther same as everyone else's?

[manonatrain]

:)
Why are you both so angry that I have given accurate information
about Arab males in the Gulf to an Asian American women. Why
is this thread out of hand. Because it tells the unspeakable.

First, you have mentioned in previous threads about living in Saudi
that you are more restricted. Many posters have disagreed with
your perspective. You say you like it there, many do not.

The CHEESE. Compares Italy to the Gulf. Well, that is a fucking first.

Women jumping to their deaths. How sick is that ?! Did they
jumped or were they pushed? Did the wives push them or the
husbands ?

I dont question your right to post your perspective. It is just
that I am very in touch with what goes on behind close doors
and not so closed doors.

If you asked me ADVICE as an Asian American women, my advice
stands. Dont come here. You wont be happy. It will be very very hard.
And in the end you can make money else where, be happier and
enjoy your life.

Oh, the nurses dont complain to YOU. Well, a lot of pain is kept inside.
And i am sure they have difficult lives in the Pilipians, perhaps
some have kids and families who depend on them staying there
and send the check home. Do you even know anything about
how hard life in the Pilipians is ?

I am sure you are both intelligent teachers, and great people.
Lets agree to disagree. But lets not recommend that all is FINE and
SAFE in the ARAB world for Asian females. :twisted:

[mli_vet]

Do we need to start a poll on how many asian women have been raped/lewdly propositioned while in the Gulf? (as if the victims have Internet access anyway--they're still locked in the back room of the haram!)

Granted, it's the maids and lower class ones who have got it the worst, but there are plenty of stories of Asian nurses and others being raped--taxi drivers cruising w/ their prey down a deserted street for example. Manona is unfortunately dead on when he talks about what goes on behind closed doors. Some of the more well-known cases have made it to the news, for example maids killing their "Slavemasters" after being raped and then they get charged w/ murder. That's Arabian Gulf justice for ya.

Then there are the asian women (wives of EFL teachers) who tell of constant harassment. I.E. being propositioned constantly--unable to go to the local grocery market without local teens asking "How much for a f#*% ?" Or Mr. Fancy Mercedes local big keffiyah cruising by and making similar suggestions.

Don't kid yourself. You better ask some serious questions before coming to the Gulf if you're of Asain-American heritage. How long can you put up with it? Do you need/want to put yourself through this kind of harassment?

When I was first hired by MLI years back now, one of the first questions AMIDEASTer Doug Duncan asked me was if my wife was "Oriental." I asked him why he was so interested in this, and his reply is telling: "To be blunt--They're trying to keep out oriental w h o r e s !" Sad but true, that's the general view of "orientals" in the Gulf. Yes, it goes on. So are all "oriental" females whores? Of course not!!!! But try telling that to the many male chauvinists (including a lot of Westerners, by the way) in the Gulf!

[lorcan1996]

Gosh-a-mighty, I didn't intend to turn this thread into such a hostile debate! My apologies for introducing a sensitive subject, but I appreciate everyone's interest! I hadn't checked the forum in a while and hadn't realized there were so many posts since the last one a few weeks ago.

I would like to get one thing straight, however, just to clarify a few things. First of all, please note that while some many not realize this, there actually IS a HUGE difference between being ASIAN and being ASIAN-AMERICAN. Yes, you're absolutely right, I'm not in the Gulf and have not ever been, so I can't speak for that particular side of the world. However, I've found while solo-backpacking around the world (yes, even in Islamic countries) that what appears to be a slight difference to white Westerners is quite a huge gulf (pardon the pun) elsewhere. I was raised in America, have a distinct Midwestern/Southern accent, was educated in America, possess an American passport, and have more American credentials than you can throw a stick at. You'd be surprised at how much of a difference that has made while travelling through, say, Borneo or southern India or sub-Saharan Africa. People DO treat me differently from the way they treat Filipinos and other Asians. Therefore, while I do seriously consider everyone's advice and cautionary tales, I also take much of it with a grain of salt, given my own previous experience abroad.

Secondly, I don't really give a fig what anyone THINKS of me. They can think all they want of what "Oriental" women are like in their minds and spin all kinds of stereotypical fantasies in their poor ignorant heads, but that doesn't affect ME in the slightest, only in the way they PERCEIVE me. What I DO care about is my personal safety, and from what I can see, that seems to be less an issue for me in the ME than it would be for me in, say, south Dallas. I'm not in the ME to change minds or attitudes, despite my card-carrying status as a member of NOW . I'm just there to earn some good money, learn about the ME (am passionate about World War I and the ME, particularly the British connection), and hopefully start a long and fulfilling career as an academic. If some poor, misguided souls stare at me on the street or even -- horrors! -- proposition me in some way, well, pooh on them. Being a woman ANYWHERE in the world makes you subject to that kind of distasteful behavior (more often so in the West, I've found, than anywhere else), but I'm not some wilting violet that's going to faint at the sight of a leering man.

And lastly, I am painfully aware of just what my Filipina sisters suffer in their sojourn in the Middle East. I have several cousins and aunties back home who have spent some time there (in the KSA, UAE, and Kuwait) and have brought back horror stories of harrassment at best, physical violence at worst. HOWEVER (and I realize there are exceptions, but this is what I have found from personal accounts of friends and family back home), there is something to be said for the role that professional status plays in one's experience in the Gulf. My nursing friends have talked of sexism and racism, but the slave-like conditions are almost exclusively the experience of housemaids and nannies. While I don't expect a bed of sexism-free roses in the Gulf if and when I do go, my expectations -- from the accounts of posters both here and elsewhere -- are that my status and AMERICAN credentials provide me with a measure of protection from such horror. (Not to mention the presence of my husband, a white American.) Am I being terribly naive here? Perhaps, and I'll be the first to post a mea culpa on this forum and graciously allow all naysayers their "I Told You So's" should I fail in the Gulf and find myself on the first plane home. But so far all I've heard are stories about Asian women, NOT Asian-AMERICAN or Asian-CANADIAN or EURAsian women, and like I said, the differences among these groups are HUGE.

I rather liked the advice given by others on this thread that, while there is much to be concerned about when it comes to racism and sexism against Asian-American women, the best way to find out is to just hop on a plane and head out here. If things go wrong, you guys will be the first to know, I promise.

(...and you know, this might actually make a very interesting article for my thesis...)

Cheers,
M.

[Cleopatra]

Dear Lorcan,

You seem refreshingly realistic and, dare I say it, sensible in your expectations and attitude. Every woman who comes to live in the Gulf - be she European, Asian or a native Arab - will get far more attention that she might wish. However, the vast majority of this attention is harmless - extremely annoying and constant, yes, but not physically threathening. Of course, there is no denying that housemaids here do sometimes get abused, but that has more to do with their lowly position in society and their vulnerability than anything else. Sad, but true.

As you also pointed out, if a man wants to project his infantile fantasies on to you - and we "Western women" suffer from that too - then that is entirely his problem. ACtually, I sometimes feel sorry for the men here - they are mere so frustrated by their almost total lack of access to women that the sight of a woman walking down the street drives them crazy. Of course, that does not excuse their behaviour but it does put it into persepective.

I've often noticed - not just here but throughout my life - that the people who really go on about how awful it is to be ogled on the street are usually men. I think that we girls are just so used to it happening that generally it doesn't bother us half as much as a lot of men think. If it did bother you, you wouldn't go outside your door here in KSA, or probably the UAE either. But most of us just learn to live with it.

[grand fromage]

I have to say I admire your positive attitude Lorcan 1996. However, what worries me is your insistance that having an Amerian upbringing, education and accent will offer you a degree of protection other Asians don't enjoy. You may be right in as far as hiring and dealing with "educated" Arabs in certain settings. However, on the street, to the general, not-so-educated crowd, you will be another Asian. In fact, don't forget that Filipinas here usually speak excellent English, so even once you start telling someone approaching you off, I doubt most of them would be able to tell the difference in your accent. And even if they can, these types wouldn't be too worried as men here hit on western-looking women all the time as well. I'm not saying this to scare you, but remember that flashing an American background isn't going to provide you with the protection your posting seems to imply. In fact, you may want to hide that fact sometimes, as Americans here are not too popular thanks to, well you-know-who Having said that, don't forget what both I and others have said before regarding attention towards women: the incidents are common but rarely turn into anything serious.

[manonatrain]

A degree. Ya, that will stop em in their tracks.


Educated Arab, please use the term LOOSELY. Cause it
is a loose term indeed.

And backpacking and living..and NOT even close to similar.

You will hate it, and you can not compare it to being
harassed LIKE EVERYWHERE else. HAHAHA...



Your students will torture you the most. Watch out.
This is the ARAB world. NOT AMERICA. NOT ASIA.
NOT EUROPE.

We are in THEIR country. IT is their rules. It is their way like it or
leave it.

Even as a male I find it hard. I dont expect easy things, but
what I see happen to the women here, my god, it is tough.

Cleopatra lives in a fantasy land or a compound.

The Pilipina nurses in Saudi regularly protistiute right
in the hospital. There is a special section for it. You will
never know about it be a woman or maybe Western, but
I am well versed in the culture. And good luck..i hope you
dont give up too much to come here. It probably wont be
worth it for you. Sorry. But it is the truth. And sometimes the
truth sucks.

[lorcan1996]

My, my, manonatrain, I find your posts highly amusing. I mean, for someone who so vehemently decries the racism and sexism in the Middle East, your messages sure reek of, well, both!

Anyway, Monsieur Fromage (or is it Madame? Mademoiselle? Just trying to cover all the bases!), I appreciate your post and apologize if I seemed a tad bit too emphatic about my AMERICAN-ness. Didn't mean to shove the stars-n-stripes in everyone's face, I just wanted to make the point that, for whatever reason, having that "credential" seemed to change people's perspectives of me wherever I travelled and lived (and, yes, I have lived in three wholly different countries). Did I get treated differently from other Asians? Yes. Was I treated the same as "white" Americans? Well, no, not always. But genuine curiosity and friendliness usually ruled the day.

I didn't mean to imply that being all rah-rah-rah Amuhrican would protect me from all the discomforts of living as a non-Arab, Asian-looking female in the ME. Got a bit carried away there, I suppose! I'm simply saying that my upbringing has given me the resources (both psychological and emotional) to deal with harrassment that perhaps my Filipina sisters from back home can't draw from because of low social/professional status. I don't intend to change centuries of ingrained sexism and racism in the ME -- I'm sure I'll have enough trouble just trying to learn my students' names without having to deal with complex social issues!

I accept and don't turn a blind eye to the fact that violence against women (whether Asian, Arab, or not) exists in the Middle East. This is the entire topic of my master's thesis, after all, so I'm not naive to this painful reality. I also live smack dab in the crime capital of the United States (my hometown of Dallas recently won this dubious honor), with more rapes occurring here than in any other metropolitan city of comparable size (more than 1 million) in the United States, after Philadelphia (309 rapes to date in 2003, the same number for all of 2002). Do I allow that statistic to keep me a virtual prisoner in my own apartment? Hardly. We live with that statistic (not one we're proud of, to be sure, but it's the reality) and are careful in our everyday life.

Dear Cleopatra, thanks to you as well for your post. You know, now that you mention it, you're absolutely right... I HAVE taken it for granted that ogling-and-staring comes with the territory of being female. When I lived in Japan, good grief, the staring was almost unreal (there were times I even went grocery shopping in the middle of the night just to avoid the discomfort!), but it seemed to freak out my male friends even more. Ditto while travelling in Tanzania and India (where staring seems to have been elevated to a high art).

By the way, I usually find that "telling someone off" who has been annoyingly boorish or rude doesn't help, but rather encourages them more (how very high school!). I and my other female friends abroad usually choose the "blithely ignore" route and have found that option to work like a charm.

Oh, and Mr/Mlle/Mme Fromage, again, I appreciate your comment in a previous post about the examples of Asian instructors in the UAE (including an Indonesian ESL teacher!). So there is hope in them thar deserts!

You know, I've always wanted to try those lovely Arab scarves anyway...

Cheers!

[grand fromage]

Good one Lorcan1996-womanonatrain needed that dose of reality. I think h/she is beyond hope so I don't even dignify his/her comments with an answer. Just come here and see for yourself, but come with an open mind.

[manonatrain]

Lorcan, well you must be right ! And you have
never lived in an Arab ruled GULF country, but
seem to need information on it. You sound
VERY high and mighty indeedy. I can see your flag from here.

And cheese, perhaps any man who defends
a woman is a fag to you, so be it, let me cry to all those on this thread.

I am just a patsy