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Itsme
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 624
Location: Houston, TX
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 Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 6:29 am Post subject: A thorough analysis of an F visa??? |
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When working on a Z visa I received a foreign expert card and a residence permit.
Am I supposed to be getting both for an F visa or just a residence permit or neither?
When I had to exit the country after working on a Z visa I had to turn in my residence permit. What sort of paperwork will I have to show when leaving the border after working on a F visa for 6 months? |
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Mytime
Joined: 17 Jan 2006
Posts: 173
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| Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 6:54 am Post subject: |
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Let me be the first of many to tell you, you shouldn't be working on an F visa to begin with, and because of this you don't automatically get a residence book. (They're not even issueing those with Z visas any longer).
That said, you are, so the important thing is the number of entries on your visa. If it's a multiple entry visa you can come and go as often as you like on the visa to the valid date of the visa. If it's (say 2 ) entries. you enter on the first one (assuming it's issued abroad) and you can leave and enter one more time. Leave again and your visa is invalid for reentry (you've used up both entries of a 2 entry visa).
I don't really understand your problem. |
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Roger
Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 9138
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| Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 7:37 am Post subject: |
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The above is true to some extent.
To some extent, however, it's also true that some employers hire you on an 'F' visa. If they apply to the PSB for your 'F' visa then you are not illegal. 'F' visas are issued to FTs for postings not exceeding one semester.
This absolves FTs from undergoing medical exams if I am well-informed.
Another obvious advantage for your employer is that 6-month 'F' visas are a convenient stop-gap solution to his fluctuating staffing needs.
I understand you get no Foreign Expert's booklet but are issued with a residence permit.
Of course, the validity of the latter must be the exact same as for your visa.
I am not sure whether such green residence permits are still in use, though. |
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Mytime
Joined: 17 Jan 2006
Posts: 173
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| Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 7:53 am Post subject: |
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I understand you get no Foreign Expert's booklet but are issued with a residence permit.
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There's another question.
My experience with F visas is that no residents permit is issued.
My experience is mostly with business people coming here for a couple of months and moving around from place to place. I can't see that they would issue a businessman on an f visa, here on business, (and let's not kid ourselves, this is who the F visa is for, not teachers working here) a residents permit. perhaps it's issued by your local PSB if you're staying for a duration and you register with them. |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 8:15 am Post subject: |
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How many people out there are actually employed as a teacher on a locally obtained (not HK) F visa?
Only one person keeps quoting this law (can work 6 months on a locally obtained F) - does it exsist - is it practised.
Before all the HK F visa teachers jump down my throat - its not an attack against you - but its to try and verify a situation for those who may be less experienced with exotic visa situation here, and who could be persuaded to accept an illegal position on advice, that without proof, could be judged as heresay. At least then they could make their desicion on wether to take that job in the light of what the actual situation is here regarding the rules:lol:
by the way I have heard of employers getting their teachers F visas in china - but these are through visa agents - who usually send the passports to HK!!! They are certainly not from the the local PSB!
Again remember all F visas are issued in China (even those obtained in HK) - if they are issued by your local PSB is what were trying to find out here. |
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7969
Joined: 26 Mar 2003
Posts: 5782
Location: Coastal Guangdong
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| Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 12:41 pm Post subject: ..... |
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| i'm currently on a HK procured 6 month F visa and my school hasnt said anything regarding any residence permits. |
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Itsme
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 624
Location: Houston, TX
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| Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 8:15 am Post subject: |
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I would like to know whether my employer is required to give me a piece of paper saying that it is ok for me to leave the country.
For example: If my employer were to decide to give me 30 extra hours of work and 2000 RMB less pay and I said that I would be leaving, would they be able to say that I am unable to because they hold the valuable piece of paper in their hand that keeps me in China and more importantly, would this actually be the case or can I leave whenever I want?
For a Z visa there is a residence permit. For a business visa would there be some kind of Tax booklet to show the amount of money made? |
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latefordinner
Joined: 19 Aug 2003
Posts: 973
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| Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 9:19 am Post subject: |
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Itsme:
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| I would like to know whether my employer is required to give me a piece of paper saying that it is ok for me to leave the country |
Good news is that the employer not only doesn't have to give you any paper, he can't even stop you from leaving if that's what you want to do. Given the hypothetical case you outlined, leaving would be one realistic option. Another would be doing a runner to another town in China and getting a new job on your F.
The Z visa and Foreign Expert's book tie you to one specific employer, the one who got you the correct documents for working in the People's Republic. The F visa is your own ticket to do whatever business you do with whatever businesses, agencies and whatever you choose. Most of us who haved worked on the F got it outside China, and paid for it ourselves.
Badnews is ... well, you can figure some of the bad news stories for yourself. |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 10:46 am Post subject: |
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bad news - well since nobody can back up the claim that teaching 6 months on a locally obtained F visa is legal as stated in post number 3 of this thread(we're still waiting guys for any feedback) - looks like it's against the law what your about to do, which makes any contract you have sighned worth just about zilch in a real dispute.
Moral of this story so far - watch out for the good advice - you could realy be led down the garden path by some of the more prodigous posters here - but then again it would be nice to hear if that 6 month working legally as a paid teacher on an F rumour was true - come on does anybody have any real expereince about this apart from heresay? |
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Roger
Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 9138
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| Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 10:55 am Post subject: |
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| Mytime wrote: |
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I understand you get no Foreign Expert's booklet but are issued with a residence permit.
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There's another question.
My experience with F visas is that no residents permit is issued.
My experience is mostly with business people coming here for a couple of months and moving around from place to place. I. |
My ANSWER referred to FTs, not BUSINESS TYPES obtaining an 'F' visa...
For FTs to obtain an 'F' visa they have to be taken on the payroll of a Chinese employer, and any employee living on the mainland needs a residence permit.
Businesspeople living in hotels don't need that, of course, but then again they hardly live in the mainland for 6 months. If they do, then they must also get a residence permit and live in a designated foreigner residence - for example a flat or villa provided by the employer and the foreign resident's safety must be ensured by trained staff (that's where the PSB come into the picture). |
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Roger
Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 9138
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| Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 10:59 am Post subject: Re: ..... |
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| 7969 wrote: |
| i'm currently on a HK procured 6 month F visa and my school hasnt said anything regarding any residence permits. |
I unambiguously stated 'F' visa obtained from the PSB...' or something to the same effect - which excludes 'F' visas bought on the black market of Hong Kong. Those visas are intended for business visitors to the mainland, not for teachers.
I also fail to understand the oxymoronic "locally obtained 'f' visa in Hong Kong' as phrasede by another poster. 'Locally' obtained surely means obtained within the jurisdiction of the nearest PSB on the mainland? Then, there can be no mention of 'Hong Kong' in the same context! |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 11:34 am Post subject: |
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| Roger how have you come about this info - do you know of any FT's legally employed on an F visa? |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 12:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Itsme wrote: |
| If my employer were to decide to give me 30 extra hours of work and 2000 RMB less pay and I said that I would be leaving, would they be able to say that I am unable to because they hold the valuable piece of paper in their hand that keeps me in China and more importantly, would this actually be the case or can I leave whenever I want? |
No your employer can not prevent you from either leaving your job or leaving China.
An employment contract is a civil agreement between two parties. As such it can be broken at any time but the terms of the contract may state a period of notice as well as a penalty for breach. These are legally binding on both parties, but breach is not a criminal matter and would need to be handled in a civil court or process.
Of course your employer can make it very difficult for you to get employment again for a period of time by not releasing you from your employ on paper if they really want to cause you stress, and the sooner this power is removed from them the better.
The authorities could theoretically prevent you from leaving the country but only for pending criminal matters or breach of visa regulations.
| Roger wrote: |
My ANSWER referred to FTs, not BUSINESS TYPES obtaining an 'F' visa...
For FTs to obtain an 'F' visa they have to be taken on the payroll of a Chinese employer, and any employee living on the mainland needs a residence permit.
Businesspeople living in hotels don't need that, of course, but then again they hardly live in the mainland for 6 months. If they do, then they must also get a residence permit and live in a designated foreigner residence - for example a flat or villa provided by the employer and the foreign resident's safety must be ensured by trained staff (that's where the PSB come into the picture). |
I have to join vikdk in his request for some supporting legislation on this.
It is my understanding that if you draw a salary in China no matter what you are doing here then you need to have a Z visa (consular officials, people here by marriage etc excepted).
F visas are business visas that are issued on the premise of doing business in China but not working here and earning a salary here. The period of this business efforts cannot exceed six months at any one time which makes sense as if you need to be here longer than this then you are working here not doing business with China.
I believe that this is all stated pretty clearly in the relevant legislation but if there is something that I am missing then I welcome you to point this out. |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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No your employer can not prevent you from either leaving your job or leaving China.
An employment contract is a civil agreement between two parties. As such it can be broken at any time but the terms of the contract may state a period of notice as well as a penalty for breach. These are legally binding on both parties, but breach is not a criminal matter and would need to be handled in a civil court or process.
Of course your employer can make it very difficult for you to get employment again for a period of time by not releasing you from your employ on paper if they really want to cause you stress, and the sooner this power is removed from them the better.
The authorities could theoretically prevent you from leaving the country but only for pending criminal matters or breach of visa regulations. |
readers again beware bad information on this site - since there is no doubt the the OP is employed illegaly on a HK F visa then any contract he has with his employer is void - no way can your employer "contractually" make it difficult for you to leave the country or find new work - the only way he could do that is in the unlikely event he shoped you to the PSB - and if you are not found out by the PSB you are theoretically a free (business) agent during your time in China - just you aint supposed to work as a FT (at least untill Roger shows us otherwise)  |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 1:14 pm Post subject: |
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shizer just read the posts again  - don't say where itsme's F visa came from - Itsme do you have the famous legal FT F visa - or is it just another Hong Kong story?
Hey Clarkie better leave my last post on hold untill we find out if Itsme is legit or not  |
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