Job Discussion Forums

[OzBurn]

I worked in Hungary for one year, at a school in Budapest. It was an international school, so the pay was much better than you can find in language schools here, where the pay is really terrible. A lad who worked at IH Budapest told me they paid him 400 USD plus accommodations. He said that that was "good" by local standards. You might be able to do better than that, but probably not by much. Privates typically pay 10 to 15 per hour, more often towards the low end of that.

My Hungarian students too often consisted of spoiled brats who disrupted class. (I had a few excellent students who were intensely frustrated with the monsters around them.) Admin would do next to nothing about it. Staff turnover was incredibly high (80% turnover I would estimate) despite disprortionately higher pay.

Hungary is one of the less interesting large cities in Europe to live in. The locals are generally not friendly (there are of course exceptions), tend to suffer from depression; and there is not a great deal to do during the long cold winters. I have seen a certain kind of very mild-mannered depressive fit in well here, but if you are even slightly shy or tend to want a lively non-expat social life, you might want to give Hungary a miss.

There is a great deal of interesting urban architecture in Budapest. However, much of it, really almost all of it, is partially spoiled by graffiti. The ubiquitous American franchises do not add to the atmosphere.

Budapest is not cheap. For example, CDs are around 30 USD, typically, and clothing is quite expensive. Food is probably 70% of American prices. There are few good restaurants and the ones that exist charge high rates. Everything, however, is much cheaper outside of Budapest and the Danube Bend.

The girls, it is generally agreed, are good-looking and extremely thin, which is the big draw for heterosexual male Americans and other hetero male expats here. A significant number of these young ladies like foreigners, so if that is all you care about, this may be a feasible place to spend a year abroad. Hungarians of both sexes tend to fall apart in their thirties or earlier, so you might want to avoid falling in love... If you are gay, you would do better almost anywhere else in Europe, I think, although the locals are not very homophobic for the most part, as Christianity has little influence here. Also, there is relatively little racism (although it certainly exists).

Rents are not supercheap. A decent apartment near a tram line will run you around 400 USD, although you can certainly do much better or anyway cheaper once you get out to the less desirable areas.

Hungarians find English very difficult and typically are rather poor students who take little interest in the niceties of correct speech and do not like to practice their English (which requires taking risks). It is also hard to find materials adapted to their needs. Typical EFL textbooks are of course designed for speakers of Romance languages (although they never admit this). Hungarians do not find English even slightly natural or normal. They must be taught everything, so it helps (even more than elsewhere) if you have an excellent grasp of English grammar.

You will not find much English spoken here compared to say Prague. The language, Magyar, is very difficult to learn, and Hungarians have little experience with foreign accents, so if you get something slightly wrong (by your standards) they often will not understand anything you say.

The CELTA course at IH Budapest is a nightmare. If you must take a CELTA, go somewhere else -- anywhere but Budapest. Not just my opinion. Many students hated and despised the course admins (one was okay, but two were nightmarish). The teaching of students I would say was terrible except there really wasn't any.

I did meet one guy who gives Business English lessons. He claimed he was making c. 17 USD per hour with his private contracts. It took him a while to build up a clientele, I think. However, he seemed to have no qualifications to me (did have a boozy, hail-fellow-well-met American charm that probably helped him get by).

This is my candid opinion. Others of course might disagree. However, I would say that very little of the above was not shared by most of the people I have met who were in a position to know.

[Hector_Lector]

So, reading between the lines, I would assume you�re not going back (although if I was SueH - any relation to IH? - I would probably write your not going back).

[Jozef]

Having been in Hungary quite often, during all times of the year, I find your story rather unbelievable.
I wonder, whom did you meet there, and where were you living and working?
Sure, the winters can be quite cold and gloomy there, but isn�t this true for almost all of Europe, as well as for large parts of North-America and Asia?
It�s true that many people can be unfriendly in public places, if you don�t know them.
But show me one big city in the word, where this is not the case.
Once you get to know people there, many of them may turn out to be the most friendly and warmhearted people you can imagine.
That Budapest is one of the least interesting cities in Europe, is a rather remarkable statement
Maybe it's not possible for every one to apreciate the depths and the spirit of Central-European culture.
It's true that it may be difficult to work as a teacher there, but show me one place in the world where teaching is easy.
And it�s never easy either to live in a strange country, especially of you hardly know any one there, and if don�t know the language yet (which is, admittedly, extremely hard to learn in this case).
It�s therefore also true, that it's difficult for Hungarians to learn English, but this has nothing to do with their abilities or wilingness, but with the fact that the Ugro-Finnic languages, to which Hungarian belongs (as well as Finnish, Estonian, and Samish), do not belong to the Indo-European language group, as almost al other European and Indian languages (in Europe, besides the languages mentioned, except for Basque and the Caucasian languages).
You noticed only one positive fact: Many Hungarian girls are beautiful.
Since I was in a relation with a Hungarian woman for several years, I can
certainly affirm this.
But that they would "fall apart" somewhere in their thirties, is definitely not true for most of them, at least not more so than anywhere else in the world.
If you realy want to see really depressing cities, go to the British Midlands
the German Ruhr area, or the rust belt in southern Poland.
If you really want to meet people who have difficulties learning English, go to most of the countries in Asia.
If you really want to see a large but utterly boring capital, and feel lonely, unseen and unloved day by day, month after month, go to Stockholm instead.
And if you want to see many people "fall apart" in their early thirties, go to some large cities in the USA.

Regards

Jozef

[LHanks]

I love the way that on this website people ask for your opinion and you give it, and another member feels the need to attack you because of it. To somehow prove your OPINION is wrong!
Live and let live!

[OzBurn]

The fact that winters are cold elsewhere doesn't make them more enjoyable in Budapest. Winters are colder in Ottawa than they are in Boston. That doesn't make the Boston winter less than painful.

In Istanbul, which is much larger than Budapest, people are usually somewhat friendly compared to Budapest. Also in San Francisco, New York (not to each other, but to visitors), Hanoi, Saigon, Mexico City, Prague, Copenhagen, and Amsterdam. The unfriendliness of Hungarians is frequently noted by Hungarians themselves, as you will find as you continue to explore the depths of what you call Central European culture. (A ridiculous term.)

Hungarians are generally quite uninterested in practicing English with visiting native speakers. You will rarely meet people who want to talk with you just for the sake of talking with a native speaker of English.

Whether the girls fall apart in their thirties is a matter of opinion, but the vast majority of expats I've talked to certainly thought so. This probably has to do with the fact that the typical Hungarian diet consists largely of processed meats, chocolate and sugary treats, fatty meats, palinka, and beer, and is relatively free of vegetables and light cooking in general. Smoking and lack of interest in exercise don't help.

The fact that you can find even more depressing areas somewhere else in the world (say, Detroit, or Aberdeen, Washington, USA) says nothing about Budapest or Hungary. Ditto for Americans falling apart. Americans may fall apart in their twenties, and are the second-fattest people in the world; but that has nothing to do with the topic, which was Hungarians, not Americans. Compared to, say, the French, Italians, Spanish, or Vietnamese, I would say that Hungarians fall apart pretty quickly.

Anyone who wants "positive" things can go to the Lonely Planet or Rough Guide, which like all travel books sing the praises of the country in depth and at length. However, the main point is: If you want to have an enjoyable time overseas, Hungary is probably a poor choice for most people. I *did* meet people who liked it, and some of them loved it. I am not claiming otherwise. However, there is a reason why you won't see the country turning up on many top ten lists.

As I said, there is wonderful urban architecture in Budapest. To be fair, the country also has an interesting history, good parks, an intellectually disposed population (relatively speaking), an attractive old town in Budapest, excellent biking trails, and superb sweet wines. Budapest has good movie houses and a well-equipped English language bookstore (compared to, say, Saigon). If these things are enough for you, you could do worse than spend a year there.

There are other negative things I could have said about Hungary, but I've spent enough time lambasting this poor, battered, post-Communist society. I will leave them where they are, and good luck to them.

[ghost]

This might be of interest to Oz Burn who taught in Hungary.

Yesterday ghost had a conversation with an African (don't know which country but somewhere in West Africa) who had been a scholarship student in Hungary and enjoyed his experience, telling one that Hungarians treated him better than Canadians do.

The African gentleman who speaks fluent Magyar, stated that EFL teachers who go to Hungary with little or no knowledge of grammar will not be appreciated in Hungary because grammar skills are highly valued by Hungarian students. EFL teachers who base their classes on conversation will not make the cut in Hungary, contrary to what is the case in many other countries.

The African student also stated that Hungarians are initially cold, but very warm once you get to know them. His experience, however, may have been unique.

[OzBurn]

I never noticed that the EFL teachers in Hungary had any particular knowledge of grammar. Hungarians, however, typically pride themselves on how "intelligent" they are. (Hungary is the only country in the world (of those that I have visited) where a large proportion of the people you meet will go out of their way to tell you that their countrymen are "very intelligent.") Maybe this translates into high demands on the teacher in the one area where the Hungarian is likely to be able to prove himself right.

[OzBurn]

I should mention one more thing: cheating is apparently epidemic in Hungary. For example, a Finnish woman I met, who was studying at the veterinary school there, said the students would brazenly open their textbooks in the middle of the exam and look up answers. I had to throw a student out of class because he tried to use a bilingual dictionary during a vocabulary test; he was outraged. (The other students thought this was pretty funny.) Other students told me that prior to my arrival, they had openly cheated during all of their tests, including, for example, walking across the room to look at the top student's test answer. They continued to attempt to cheat for several months even after I had made it clear it wouldn't be tolerated.

Other people told me that almost all Hungarian schools commonly tolerate cheating.

There is a self-pitying attitude among Hungarians that has been noted by many critics of its culture, including, I believe, many Hungarians themselves. Oh, poor me -- and poor Hungary, which, so they will tell you again and again, used to be three times its current size. Hungarians tend not to note that the "Hungary" which used to sprawl across central Europe mostly consisted of land that contained a majority of non-Hungarians; it was an empire that had to go. They also neglect the nationalist strain of "Magyarization" that made their subjects resent them and wish to be free of the Hungarian yoke. This had linguistic and cultural elements. They even systematically purged words that were cognate with Indo-European languages. Linguistic Magyarization still exists; for example, Hungarians are not supposed to use a Magyar form of computer, but, rather, a very long word of their own invention. Now, ironically, they are being pressured to learn English and German, and are joining a Europe with whose languages they have nothing in common.

But, when all is said and done, it was my first time living overseas, I didn't adapt very well, and it is certain that I had a more negative experience in Hungary than many other people. So go and see for yourself. You might love it...

[ghost]

OzBurn had a tough time in Hungary, and in many ways it resembles the experience Ghost had in Romania last year.

Ghost elected domicile in Brasov (Romania), home to a substantial ethno Hungarian (origin) population. The people there were rather cold and unfriendly, for example when asking for information. Although Brasov is a rather nice town, nestled in a mountainous region famous for the ski slopes, the locals don`t seem to catch on that if they are not friendly to foreigners, they (the locals) will not get repeat business...and so was the case with ghost...

In general, Romanians in the service industry do not understand the concept of providing service with a smile, and this comes as a shock to many foreigners, who do not take kindly to the seemingly rude, direct behaviour of the locals. The owner of the guest house in Brasov (10 euros a night) where ghost stayed, told one that he had never had backpackers come back for a repeat visit, and that honest piece of information says a lot about what foreigners think about the country, for actions speak louder than words. Ghost also read quite a few negative comments in the guest book at the guest house....one foreigner had been roughed up on a local bus by a gang of ``skin heads.`

One thing of interest to OzBurn - the students of Hungarian origin in the schools in Brasov had significantly higher test scores and results in comparison with their Romanian counterparts....and even Romanians recognize that Hungarians are smarter (in general) than Romanians...but this may have something to do with culture, rather than intrinsic intelligence, which should be evenly distributed across all populations.

[OzBurn]

Personally, I greatly doubt that intelligence is evenly distributed across populations. For example, it is a pretty consistent finding that Asians, in general, outscore other races in quantitative ability, and I believe that most people in the US would tell you that this matches their experience, if they went to mixed schools with Asians and other races. Ashkenazi Jews, to take another notable example, score a full standard deviation above the American average.

Of course, such trends say nothing at all about how intelligent, or dim, a given individual may be.

These findings excite rage and other irrational emotional reactions in a great many people, so I will opt out of any flame wars on this topic.

[BloodyIrish]

before i start, l hanks and others, i dont mean this as some rubbishing of ozburn's opinion, but you gotta realise that many people considering gettin into tefl want to read these forums to get a balanced view. and heres my balance...doenst mean ozburn is wrong, just felt different.

i work in a university in kaposvar, so maybe my experience isnt typical, since the pay is better, and the conditions pretty damn good. there again, i have a lot of friends in schools around hungary that ive heard a lot from.

as for students being spoiled brats, this is by no means typical, but yes, when a school can afford a native teacher at all, they tend at times to have spoiled brats in the class. my classes have so far not been at all like that.

this stuff about hungarian depression is, to me, nonsense. it is a 'national trait' but these things are usually exaggerated by middle calss nationalists anyway to make it seem like one nation is all that different from others. dont get me wrong, hungary is very different from anywhere else ive been in europe, but this depression stuff is a bit overblown. i dont know where the feeling of unfriendliness came from though. hungarians, who generally have no english, even in budapest, have always gone so far out of their way to help me i have been embarassed to think what happens to them when they visit ireland. if they seem unfriendly it is because there is no culture of smiling like a goon, like there is in america. people arent being rude, it just takes more to smile in this part of the world, where, after all, people are poor, and there is more pain than happiness most of the time. part of the problem, too, is language. its hard to be friendly when you cannot comprehend one another.

regarding finding budapest uninteresting, well, that is obviously opinion, and i guess i cant defend my own view in any meaningful way, but i will say that i have never felt so intensely RIGHT in a city as i do when i walk round budapest. if you know a few locals they might show you the REAL nightlife, (maybe they did) which isnt all expensive terrace bars and strip clubs. ive been to a couple of great beer gardens that are not sign posted, not easily found, but have the greatest atmosphere ive ever come across. you wont find them in the bleeding lonely planet guide. their a hard phenomenon to explain, just real cool, relaxed etc., if you dont find places and people like that, yeah, budapest would get mighty boring. im not much of a sightseer myself, so i really dont care whether the architecture is nice in a place, what i love in budapest is the way everything is a little beaten up, a little shabby, and nobody does anything about it...makes you think their too busy living life, or doing more important things. the grafitti is a feature of most of eastern europe, and it is, in fact, a constant reminder of resistance to communism. it was one of the few crimes it was easy to get away with under the old regime, and people did it all the time. taggin is an art form...

as for prices, yeah budapest is a bit dear...but not 70% of US prices (so say my yankee friends here anyway). if you work anywhere else youre laughing, this country remains, if you know where to look, a very cheap place to live. i live in a HUGE apartment right beside the main square of my town, with cable television (so i can get nonsense 'news'from CNN etc) and so on. i couldnt be happier with the value (properly registered teachers get free accommodation and bills paid).

i didnt know what you meant at first by the term 'fall apart' i thought maybe they were all having nervous breakdowns...i dunno if they get fat, or if you can generalise about these things, or if its tasteful to even do so. the women are beautful here, no more or less so than any other european country i guess. one bad thing on the racism issue, i think the reason its not racist is because they have very few immigrants. expect some pretty ugly racism in the next few years...xenophobia will be quite strong in such a racially insular culture as this.

my experience of teaching english here hasnt been so negative. i think their english is realtively good, especially for people without an indo european bone in their body. i can imagine teaching chinese or thai students would be far far worse. i dont think hungarians feel 'intelligent', they are incredibly shy about speaking english to me (not reluctant, just terrified theyll make amistake...i have phd students who will only speak to me about getting proof reading done through other english teachers, even though they can write an academic paper for publication in english).

the cheating is, im told, rampant. ive not heard of it being as bad as you say, but teachers in my college have warned me. i dont think its tolerated though.

yes hungarian is hard, in fact it makes life here difficult at times, but people are very complimentary if you try. comprehension is very slow...but it at least allows you to appreciate how hard they find english. it is, incidentally, a beautiful language, too. in my experience everyone in budapest who you have to deal with much will speak english anyway. not so in my town...the second language here tends to be german, which i havent a word of. it doesnt matter though, i mean, if languages were easy wed all have no jobs.

cant comment on the CELTA course. it IS perfectly possible to get a job here simply as a native speaker, a degree is almost, but not quite, necessary. and i am talking about in state high schools here, not dodgy language schools out for a buck. i know a 17 yeear old teaching in a high school here. the reason is that their own language teachers are perfectly competent grammar teachers, and the teaching regime is quite old fashioned in its methods. most teachers i know here arent even allowed teach grammar directly, thexy only converse, albeit with the intention of having students practise particular tenses, etc. usually you give a conversation class to a group who have already had a grammar class with a local teacher. you and the local teacher coordinate lesson plans etc so that youre singin from the one hymn sheet.

students are reluctant to practice english, same as im reluctant to practice hungarian, its bleeding hard. but private tuition is easy to build up. also, if youre lucky enough to be in academic circles (and if youre even NEAR a university you should make yourself known to them) you can proof read english language academic papers, which only a native speaker (you will need to have some academic writing experience...i did a masters in english, and taught a lot of literature, which helped) can do. this pays 10 us dollars a page.

yes, the self pity of the hungarians is irritating. the loss of territory is the result of the treaty of trianon, adnt they never get sick of talking about it. my favourite private joke is to see how far i can push the self pity, by churning out the irish sob story, trying to one up them again and again, and they always go for the bait, piling on more of their woes. its funny actually. but your historical analysis is too simplistic. im not an expert on hungarian history, but it would seem to me that no effort at magyarisation was ever so intense as the russification it has undergone in the meantime, or the anglicisation being, far more insidiously, perpetrated throughout the world today by ourselves. the systematic purge of foreign words is a practise common thorughout the world. the french do it, in ireland irish (gaelic...) does it...its a cultural defence mechanism. given that many of us get into teaching english to see the world, we are faced with the irony that we are prime participants in the hoomogenisation of that world (just as much as any american franchise). we would do well to remember the potential damage we can do to a linguistic heritage due to the primacy of english in fields of study and economic advance where new language is constantly being created. is it really that big of a deal if they like a big word for computer? im sure english has done similar things to words throughout history to assimilate them to our tongue.

yeah, im stickn clear of the race issue...

[OzBurn]

Well, if you like graffiti and trashed old buildings that used to be grand, it's no surprise you like Budapest. Many English teachers will probably share your tastes. However, defending it as a relic of communism is typically Hungarian and to me, rather odd. Everything rude, ugly, defaced, slow, corrupt, etc. is defended in Hungary as a consequence of communism.

I did not ever visit a strip club, thank you. Yes, I saw the summer beer gardens, and they were nice -- atmospheric places to drink beer, certainly. That would make for a nice weekend trip, no doubt, but that's not the same as culture for living in a place. Also, they're open only in summers. Budapest has seven or eight months a year of harsh cold weather. Where to go then?

Well, if you go to the Gypsy Parliament, you'll hear some good live music. Too bad the audience is so inert they look like they're on Thorazine.

I'm sure that the small town you are in is much friendlier than Budapest. This is always the case with small towns compared to big cities. In retrospect, I should have made more clear perhaps that my experience was of Budapest, not of "Hungary." Also, as far as relative prices are concerned, I wonder how much shopping you actually did in Budapest. Some things are actually considerably more expensive than they are in the States. You may not be aware that many things in the United States are considerably cheaper than they are in Western Europe. (I met an Italian woman who told me that Italian furniture is cheaper in the United States than it is in Italy.) Your Yankee friends may live in the some of the more expensive areas on the United States. Also, there is an expat tendency to compare the local junk to good-quality products from their home country. Yeah, you can buy a bottle of wine in Hungary for the equivalent of 70 cents. But if you want the equivalent of a ten-dollar bottle of wine in the US, you will pay about eight or nine dollars. Clothing that is durable and fits well will cost you at least as much as it costs in the US, if not more, although you can certainly buy a Hungarian-made suit for surprisingly little. (You used to be able to buy those same Hungarian suits in the US, until Men's Wearhouse put the cheap Hungarian suit-sellers out of business.) Good luck finding any furniture at any price that is comfortable or looks good; Hungarians are not known for their sense of aesthetics.

As far as falling apart mentally is concerned, it is true that Hungary has historically had the highest suicide rate in the world, although since 1994 it has been surpassed by countries in the FSU. Currently it ranks sixth in the world.

With regard to depression, I am surprised that you would dismiss what legions of Hungarians themselves will tell you about their countrymen. Dismissing everyone who tells you this as a "middle class nationalist" struggling to affirm the Magyar nation strikes me as a bit bizarre in this context. But let's not just swap opinions, here are some facts. According to a recent survey:

"24.3 % of the [Hungarian] population over 16 complains of symptoms of depression, that is, one quarter of adults and adolescents."
http://www.behsci.sote.hu/psycho.htm

I didn't say that Hungary wasn't racist. I said there was relatively little racism compared to some other places. I knew a black American guy who was chased by skinheads who wanted to, so far as he could tell, kill him, and his race was often discussed in public by people at neighboring tables at restaurants and bars. Hungarian skinheads are often virulent racists and can be violent. Also, I neglected to mention that Hungarians are viciously racist and hateful towards Gypsies. A student of mine told me that "literally 95% of the population hates them." The other students agreed. And according to other things I heard, the Gypsies often return the favor and hate the Hungarians in return, and are brutal and nasty to the Hungarian children in schools where they have a majority (they also, so I was told, tend to steal from the Hungarian children). (Note: In this section, I use the term "Hungarian" the way Magyar Hungarians do -- that is, to mean Hungarians who are not Gypsies. However, the Gypsies are, of course, Hungarians themselves.)

Believe me, the cheating is widely tolerated. Students at my school cheated in full view of their English teachers for years. The students at the veterinary school cheated openly in full view of the professors. Students at a local business school in Budapest submitted openly plagiarized work as their own, and a teacher told me that they were surprised when she told them they were not allowed to do this.

I never said that Magyarization of language was a big deal. I just commented on it. It is part of the prickly nationalism of Hungary that one might want to know about if one is contemplating teaching there.

I think your emphasis on the "cool" and "relaxed" quality of Hungarian places is correct, and for people who like that and dislike intensity, Hungary is just the place to go. No one will ever jump on your cool. That's why it is good you posted.

I'm glad someone is enjoying it.

Finally, having now taught in SE Asia, I can say that I agree that Hungarians find English easier than Vietnamese do. The complexities of their own tongue probably serve them well in studying grammar, whereas there are no analogues in Vietnamese or Chinese to many English grammatical structures.

Also, I wish, Darwin do I wish, that I could find an expat bookstore or a moviehouse that was one-fifth as good as the ones in Budapest, which has a fourth of Saigon's population. I didn't know how good I had it!

Finally (really finally this time), to be fair to Hungary, my unpleasant time at the school where I was teaching did not dispose me to make the best of the country. And it was my first time living overseas, and I was going through I guess fairly typical adjustment problems. The country is probably considerably better than I thought or experienced.

[BloodyIrish]

well, its not that grafitti is communist, its that its a symbol of resistance to communism. regarding the place being run down, yeah, i guess thats just a question of taste, not much point arguing, either you like the feel of a place or you dont.

i never said you visited a strip club...i dunno, maybe theyre not so bad...anyway, my point was, they would be good symbols of a crappy seedy nightlife geared to western business men who dont love their wives. and certainly that glamorous market is catered for in budapest, but there is more to it than that is all i meant.

what is culture, if not doing what hungarians do? i mean, it IS nice for a weekend trip to go to those gardens, im not sure what you mean, though. do you mean culture in the sense of museums and galleries and orchestral performances? cos theres certainly no shortage of that sstuff. in winter, true enough, the gardens close. my real problem with budapest is the lack of a serious electrnica culture (cos im into that). i dont mean woful ibiza club music, i mean goo dance music (i dunno, aphex twin and so on). ive never seen a city so big so bereft of that sort of underground. i dunno, maybe its there, thats why they call it underground. but winter in budapest is very beautiful...which does not a great night life make, but howsomeever...

as regards friendliness, i think i found budapest to be ok...of course its not as friendly as the country boys, but its not so bad. just different experience i guess. i always find that trying hungarian helps, and the more the better (i dunno, probably you have at least as much hungarian as me).

ive done plenty of shopping in budapest, my main experience has been that it depends where you shop. i realise cds are cheaper in the us, i dunno about furniture (i dont have to furnish my apartment...but that does mean my living room looks like the brady bunch). the americans i knwo come from various different places. personally i was reall yonly referring to food and drink, which are very cheap, even in budapest. as for nice furniture, try ikea or some nonsense place like that...i think hungarians, given their incredible musical, literary and arachitectural heritage would be highly offended if they heard you say they have no sense of aesthetics. they have no money for nice things, but that doesnt mean much.

the reason i say middle calss nationalism breeds these national differences is because of the historical fact of nationalisms invention by the middle classes in the early nineteenth century. all nationalisms are, initially, a top down phenomenon. believeing in One Nation takes longer.

high suicide rates, it seems to me, are indicative of specific social and economic problems, not some inbuilt racially classifiable mentality. when i go out with hungarians, and when i see (especially young) hungarians out, they laugh and smile as much as anyone.

the figures you quote i cant argue with, but how do they compare with other countries? what does 'symptoms of depression' mean? is that depression or not?

i know you didnt say hungary wasnt racist, i just said it was one thing that is worse than you felt. skinheads leave me alone, but they wont leave everyone alone. the gypsy thing is sickening. i dont have any gypsies in my classes, cos they never get to college, but my friends have found the teachers around them openly treating gypsies like scum, just because their gypsies. no wonder they behave badly in class...they are told constantly what a waste of space they are. a friend of mine in miskolc was told by a teacher that 'it was a pity hitler didnt kill the gypsies instead of the jews first, then we wouldnt have this problem'. my friend is a jew, which the hungarian didnt seem to realise as she waited for agreement. she added 'there must be a similar problem in america'. my friend, joking, replied 'yeah, we have the blacks' to show up the absurdity of what she had said, and the teacher simply nodded, 'ah yes, i hate black people too'.

ill keep an eye out for the cheating.

all this doesnt mean youre wrong bout hungary of course, and its important that someone wanting to come here doesnt think itll be lovely and nice and simple like the rough guide say. it is my first time teaching abroad too, so maybe there are better places than this. and maybe ive been lucky to have so many good friends around me in hungary to speak to.

[OzBurn]

No, to my everlasting shame, I did not learn Hungarian, and a good many of my conclusions can be reasonably questioned based on that fact. I can't make any excuses for my failure in this regard. All I can do is explain. I disliked it so much, and had such a painful time (boo-hoo) in my classes, that I frankly felt very put off by the experience and was constantly planning on leaving. Putting time into language study seemed beside the point. That was very wrong of me, and I'm sure that I would have had a much better time if I had merely steeled myself to a couple of hours of study every day. I hope I don't come off as attempting irony here, because I am quite in earnest.

I think part of it was that it was my first time living overseas, and my expectations were unreasonably high -- both as to the condition of the country and the friendliness of the locals. I made a poor choice as to first location, and stuck with it against my better judgment.

You are quite right about the remarkable history of Hungarian contributions to urban architecture and music. I stand corrected. I should have limited my critique to design, in which, I will still say, Hungary is pretty weak, with the exception of its brief flowering around the turn of the century. You will find very little of interest, for example, in the Hungarian design museum (30 minutes is more than enough).

As far as music is concerned, although it is possible to find a lot of classical music (and I mean true classical music, of the symphonic kind), and a lot of music by Hungarian composers in the subsidized concert halls, you will find very little Hungarian in Budapest popular/folk music. Almost all of the young people listen to techno and pop (Justin Timberlake and the like). There isn't even any interest in trad jazz, rock, modern jazz, etc. It's just disco beats, or what I call disco beats, not knowing or caring anything about distinctions among contemporary dance music.

As I'm finding out, in many ways Budapest is a wonderland compared to, say, Saigon. But you live and learn. Again, some people love it. Different strokes and all that. My experience was just one person's reaction.

[guangho]

I was born and raised in Budapest (Bartok Bela utca) before moving to the States at the age of 11. I can't comment on day to day life in Budapest today and definitely can't speak about the provinces (though I will say that the eastern Plains and the northeastern towns, Miskolc and Ozd in particular can be safely avoided), I do remember quite a bit of depression (or perhaps, to be accurate, self-pity) and bigotry. The treatment of the Roma (Gypsies) is unspeakable, anti-semitism is rampant (though, being Jewish, I admit to bias) and it seems that Hungarians, as a whole, have learned nothing from their losses in WWI and WWII, if the election of Orban back in 1998 (a gent my grandmother, an Auschwitz survivor, referred to as "Hitler Jr.") is any indication.

Of course we all have our own baggage and preferences. If you are an average white guy from Chicago, Budapest maybe the coolest place for you. You may also enjoy the provinces, especially towards the Austrian border, which tend to be a bit wealthier and more accomodating to culture shock (Sopron, Gyor, Szombathely and so on). If you are an average black guy from Chicago, run for the hills or at least Western Europe. (I'll make an exception for Poland because most of the Polish people I know are pretty decent and will treat you well. Notice I said Polish and not Polish-American.)