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tmask
Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 5
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 Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 4:35 am Post subject: China schools |
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I've been offered a couple of contracts to teach in China; however, I've tried searching for the school names but have come up with nothing. I was wondering if anyone has had any experiences with:
a) MapleLeaf Foreign Language School - Grant Guymer
b) Times Language School - Mario Lanzilotta
c) Shanghai Jordan's Technological CO
d) TDM Language College - Woody Ding
Any help is appreciated. Thanks. |
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saint57
Joined: 10 Mar 2003
Posts: 1221
Location: Beyond the Dune Sea
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| Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 5:18 am Post subject: |
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| A and C sound like other schools with a slight change in name, which probably isn't a good thing. They all appear to be private language schools which might not be everyone's cup of tea. If you can't even find the slightest bit of info on any of these schools on the Internet then you should give everyone more info about the conditions they are offering etc to get a better picture. |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 12:01 am Post subject: Re: China schools |
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| tmask wrote: |
| I've been offered a couple of contracts to teach in China; however, I've tried searching for the school names but have come up with nothing. |
You must be looking in the wrong places. Try www.buxiban.com 
| tmask wrote: |
| a) MapleLeaf Foreign Language School - Grant Guymer |
This gets one very brief one line recommendation but there is no information as to why it is 'recommended'. Checking out the info on the school it seems to be a reasonable prospect to me. I don't think you will have concerns about being ripped off etc, but whether or not you like working there will be up to you to determine for yourself.
| tmask wrote: |
| b) Times Language School - Mario Lanzilotta |
You probably best give more information such as province and city as there are several places with similar names.
Assuming that you are talking about the one in Xiamen it looks to be quite a good prospect. Foreign owner and his wife and a couple of positive comments. One negative one but it is pretty much a personal matter that may or may not relate to you.
| tmask wrote: |
| c) Shanghai Jordan's Technological CO |
Nothing on this one. Maybe post a web address and we can all give you feedback on their offer.
| tmask wrote: |
| d) TDM Language College - Woody Ding |
There has been a lot written about Woody and TDM. I am surprised that you can't find anything. There are of course some complaints but overall I think that you will find that the comments are pretty positive. Again, a good prospect.
You are doing the right thing in my opinion in researching these positions as much as you can.
The next step of course is to actually contacting teacher, both past and present, from that school. I hope that some of them will post here as the information is good for everyone. |
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tmask
Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 5
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| Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 3:01 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for your reply.
I tried the search on Buxiban and found a little info.
The Times Language Training Center is in Quanzhou. They are offering me 17-20 hr work week for 5000 RMB, OT at 100 RMB/hour, Monday to Friday, 10-30 children ages 4-12 years, shared accomodations...pay own hydro and maintenance....any thoughts?
The Maple Leaf Foreign School is in Handan City. The are offering 4520 RMB for 54 hours month, single accomodations put pay own hydro if bill over 150/month, OT at 50 RMB/hour. I really like this contract but haven't been able to talk to the owner personally...
TDM is offering 5400 RMB/month for 22.5hours week, shared apt or single hotel room, travel bonus of 2000RMB on arrival, working evenings during week and both Sat and Sun...
Do they sound ok? I would want to negiotate some aspects of each contract but overall do you think I should consider them or are there better ones out there for a person with no degree (college diploma) and no TESOL?? |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 4:16 pm Post subject: |
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overtime 50/hour sucks big time  |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 11:20 pm Post subject: |
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| tmask wrote: |
| I tried the search on Buxiban and found a little info. |
Be sure to add some info of your own as the more information about experiences and opinions that are added, the more valuable a resource it will become. And then the next time someone is researching Times, Maple Leaf, or TDM, there will be a just bit more information there to help them make an informed decision.
| tmask wrote: |
The Times Language Training Center is in Quanzhou. They are offering me 17-20 hr work week for 5000 RMB, OT at 100 RMB/hour, Monday to Friday, 10-30 children ages 4-12 years, shared accomodations...pay own hydro and maintenance....any thoughts?
The Maple Leaf Foreign School is in Handan City. The are offering 4520 RMB for 54 hours month, single accomodations put pay own hydro if bill over 150/month, OT at 50 RMB/hour. I really like this contract but haven't been able to talk to the owner personally...
TDM is offering 5400 RMB/month for 22.5hours week, shared apt or single hotel room, travel bonus of 2000RMB on arrival, working evenings during week and both Sat and Sun... |
The offerings seem to be pretty well the same to me. You seem to have a preference for Maple Leaf so I would follow this one through first, and if it doesn't work out then move onto number two and three. I am not sure that meeting the owner is going to be valuable for you, but I do think that contacting past or present teachers will be. Have you had a chance to speak with other teachers there? What did they say about the schools? |
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tmask
Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 5
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| Posted: Sat Mar 18, 2006 12:39 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for your reply.
I do like the Maple Leaf contract better but it has been hard to connect with the owner. My second choice is the Times Language school in Quanzhou. I have emailed teachers from 2 of the schools but am awaiting a reply. |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Sat Mar 18, 2006 2:54 am Post subject: |
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| I am not sure that meeting the owner is going to be valuable for you, |
Why do you say this Clark - are owners too busy for mere teachers
Talking to owners, bosses, Dos's like Clark, ordinary Joe teachers - all seems a good idea to me. Maybe get them to send a picture of appartment - that can be too hard for them to do in this digital age. Remember negotiation is the key word here - back home its normal just to except what's been given - here it's part of the culture to haggle. For the newbie, especially the one with no experience, it's hours that can be the real China experience killer. At the start it takes many hours to prepair lessons - so 20 contact hours are not a true indication of how long you will be working. Many teachers here like about 15 anything over 20 doesn't seem to get many thumbs up - although some busybees seem to thrive on it. The other thing is contract - so many problems with those (just read throiugh the threads) - if you were to actually make them legally binding it would take such a hassle going through the authorities that in the long run it's best to save on the grey hairs and accept that the boss holds the ace cards here. A contract can be seen as an indicator of what you will get - in many many cases bosses will follow up on the contract 100%, but there are also so many cases of cheating from employers side with respect to bonuses, overtime, air fares etc etc - but what the hell just part of the China adventure 
By the way you will in someway be illegal - even if all the work permit stuff in your passport stamps you kosher - you have no degree - the boss has a "good" relationship with the authorities - the usual modus operandi of business world China. Legal/illegal boundries seem pretty cloudy in this country with a view to a regulation being applied, and non-degree teachers seem to be very safe here - but I think its nice to know what side of the fence you stand on, even if that nice boss tells you all is fine |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Sat Mar 18, 2006 4:59 am Post subject: |
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| vikdk wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I am not sure that meeting the owner is going to be valuable for you, |
Why do you say this Clark - are owners too busy for mere teachers |
How do you get 'the owners being too busy' stance from my post?
I simply believe that there is more value in talking to the staff at the schools and more specifically the current and ex-foreign teachers. Most school owners that I know don't speak English, so that limits things somewhat, but assuming that the owner was fluent in English, what do you see as being the value of talking to the owner over perhaps speaking with the FAO, recruitment officer, or teachers?
| vikdk wrote: |
| Dos's like Clark |
I'm not a DOS. Please don't assume things about me vikdk. |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Sat Mar 18, 2006 5:03 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| I'm not a DOS. Please don't assume things about me vikdk. |
okay lets play rumple stiltskin - do you work in the head-office of a chain company
to be a little more on topic - Clark how would advise the OP about negotiations - you got any tips there - how much room do you reckon there is to negotiate?
what about hours - what do you reckon are doable hours for a newbie - of course a how long is a piece of string question, with so many variables - but you must have an idea or 2 on that!
what about the legal aspects of coming here and not meeting regulations - we all know that it should be as safe as houses working without a degree, but don't you think its a good idea to be know where you stand - any ideas on this?
Contracts - how much faith should the FT put in them?
by the way I forgot to warn the OP to check on travelling times - sometimes school will send you off all over town, or indeed province - travelling time in nearly all cases being unpaid and in worst cases being almost as long as your working hours. You like sitting in cars or busses no problems - but a real piss-off for the run of the mill FT |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Sat Mar 18, 2006 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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| vikdk wrote: |
| okay lets play rumple stiltskin - do you work in the head-office of a chain company |
No I don't but thanks for asking.
| vikdk wrote: |
| to be a little more on topic - Clark how would advise the OP about negotiations - you got any tips there - how much room do you reckon there is to negotiate? |
Too many variables here for me to comment on as each case is different.
My advice would be to make a list of things that you want and put these in order of importance. Decide upon which are must haves and which are sweeteners and then go to work getting as many as you can reasonably get. Don't overwhelm the school but also don't accept a job if you don't get at least your must haves. Your must haves must of course be reasonable and these will vary according to who you are and what you want from your experience in China - so don't ask what they are vikdk!
| vikdk wrote: |
| what about hours - what do you reckon are doable hours for a newbie - of course a how long is a piece of string question, with so many variables - but you must have an idea or 2 on that! |
Again this will depend upon the person and what they want from their experience here. I don't think that there is a certain number of hours that people should or shouldn't work.
Personally I would look at the job by dividing the wage by the number of hours and decide whether the hourly rate was good enough for me. I would also look to see if the school could offer me more hours if I wanted to earn more. But then others may prefer a light load with a light pay packet as it enables them to pursue other interests. Each to his or her own.
| vikdk wrote: |
| what about the legal aspects of coming here and not meeting regulations - we all know that it should be as safe as houses working without a degree, but don't you think its a good idea to be know where you stand - any ideas on this? |
I meet the legal requirements for employment as a foreign teacher here so have never had to worry about this aspect of things. Again the decision of whether to work legally, semi-legally, or illegally is up to the individual. I would not work illegally as it puts outside the protection of the law and into the hands of employers who employ illegally, but plenty of people do and have a happy time here in China.
| vikdk wrote: |
| Contracts - how much faith should the FT put in them? |
At the end of the day the written contract is about the only document that you can use if you want to pursue your employer for wrong doing. Very few people have the desire to do this in China, but this does not negate the value of a written contract from a legal standpoint. Of course I know that most schools prefer to concentrate on what is said rather than what is written and this is how most schools actually operate, but at the end of the day the legal eagles will always want the contract!
So in answer to your question, if it is not written in your contract and you don't get it even though it was promised to you then you have no chance of fighting for it. Just because it is written in your contract is no guarantee that the school will actually give it to you, but if you really want to pursue the matter then having the promise in writing in your contract is going to go a long way to ensuring that you get what you are entitled to. |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Sat Mar 18, 2006 3:48 pm Post subject: |
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Clark - do you have any qualifications in education - if you do maybe you will remember that as a student teacher your not just thrown at the deep-end - its a gradual process where you gradually aquire a stroke that enables you to swim at length with ease.
In China you are thrown in off the deep-end - most gigs expect you to be pulling full FT weight within a month of starting - I'm sure even Clark won't dispute that! So for a newbie job which is 20 hours plus is going to quite a handfull - in most cases a lot stressing out - over 15 is going it for many
as for Clark's trust in the law over here - well come over and take a look - maybe after a while you'll have less faith in the phrase "under the protection of the law" than you did before |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 4:45 am Post subject: |
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| vikdk wrote: |
Clark - do you have any qualifications in education - if you do maybe you will remember that as a student teacher your not just thrown at the deep-end - its a gradual process where you gradually aquire a stroke that enables you to swim at length with ease.
In China you are thrown in off the deep-end - most gigs expect you to be pulling full FT weight within a month of starting - I'm sure even Clark won't dispute that! So for a newbie job which is 20 hours plus is going to quite a handfull - in most cases a lot stressing out - over 15 is going it for many |
And as you would appreciate yourself having also obtained an education major and attended the practical teaching aspects of this makes one more prepared at the start, but does not make this person necessarily a better classroom teacher. To me personality and dedication to the job means more than academic qualifications and unlike yourself I certainly not look down on teachers who don't have an education degree.
I think that the above all depends upon whether the person wants to be a teacher or whether he or she wants a job in order to earn money while in China. As such the biggest hurdle that I see is the persons motives for wanting to teach, rather than the schools requirements on the teacher.
| vikdk wrote: |
| as for Clark's trust in the law over here - well come over and take a look - maybe after a while you'll have less faith in the phrase "under the protection of the law" than you did before |
Yes my views are different than most, but then I base my views upon my practical experience in this area. What practical experience do you have seeing that your rights are enforced here vikdk? Or are you just speaking from a hypothetical point of view? |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 11:17 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| And as you would appreciate yourself having also obtained an education major and attended the practical teaching aspects of this makes one more prepared at the start, but does not make this person necessarily a better classroom teacher. To me personality and dedication to the job means more than academic qualifications and unlike yourself I certainly not look down on teachers who don't have an education degree. |
Tush tush Clark, rousing prose from the bard of sendthemtosleepville - looking down or up for that matter isn't a question here - it's giving dem new folk a good start - shizer if was as easy as you make it out why the hell educate a teacher in first palce. And another thing clark - since you come out as such an ethical guy on these forums, which must mean you have a thought or two upon teaching ethics - what about them on the receiving end. How happy would you be leaving your kid in class with an unqualified FT with just a month on the job Chinese training, in his 20th contact hour of that week - daunting prospect aint it, maybe even a recipe for a few kids starting to hate the English language rather than learn it
on law front Clark - I got my reasons - like my first employer left me visaless for 10 days but nothing ever happened- it was an illegal visa obtained by a visa agent - nobody checked up on dates They left my co-worker - an Isreali 42 days without a visa because the chinese had stoped issueing F's to Isrealies because of terror worries (this was 2003 don't know if they have started again). Anyways they just told my co-worker that there were delays and the passport and visa were coming - when it came no visa, and 42 days visaless. One would think this was a big problem - well they really needed this guy, I had done a runner by then - no probs a trip to the PSB an envelope of money (the Isreali guy saw this) - at first the PSB wanted him to sighn under a letter in Chinese, which, they said, stated he had been walking to China from Tibet and had been delayed hence no visa!!!! he refused to sighn - so money over the table and a months L visa for the guy, which he worked on and extended and worked again - my co-worker, after a month and a half of mistreatment followed me and ran seeking sanctuary on my floor.
Laws for FT's clark - I've seen them in action |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 2:51 pm Post subject: |
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| vikdk wrote: |
| How happy would you be leaving your kid in class with an unqualified FT with just a month on the job Chinese training, in his 20th contact hour of that week - daunting prospect aint it, maybe even a recipe for a few kids starting to hate the English language rather than learn it |
Again you are assuming that just because someone has a degree in education that they are automatically a better teacher and by logic this must mean that you believe that teachers without education majors are not good teachers. I don't agree with this in the field of teaching anymore than I agree with it any other field. Qualifications in a certain discipline serve a purpose and are by no means a waste of time, but they also do not maketh the man or woman. Dedication to the job and personality are what I would consider vitally important for a good teacher.
An honest answer to your question is that I would be perfectly happy leaving my child to learn a language with a native speaker of that language provided that I was happy with the school and the teacher him or herself. It would not bother me one iota whether or not that teacher had the credentials to prove him or herself. I would prefer that my child enjoyed the classes presented by that teacher and that my child was actually learning something. But this is just me.
I know for a fact that not every student in the classes that I studied at university was absolutely suited to the work that we were studying for.
| vikdk wrote: |
| on law front Clark - I got my reasons - like my first employer left me visaless for 10 days but nothing ever happened- it was an illegal visa obtained by a visa agent - nobody checked up on dates |
It is no surprise to hear about the shenanigans that go on at some schools, but more pertinent to your point about the laws here being toothless is the question as to what you did once you found yourself in that situation. Did you pursue the issue through the system, or did you accept it and walk away? I assume from the fact that you mention you did a runner that you chose not to pursue the matter. This is your right of course, but if you have never used the legal system here then how do you feel qualified to suggest that it doesn't work?
| vikdk wrote: |
| no probs a trip to the PSB an envelope of money (the Isreali guy saw this) |
Yeah right! A public official accepts a bribe in the view of witnesses! Come on vikdk. You weren't there so you are working off what this guy may have told you, but use your common sense. No public official is going to jeapordize his or her job by accepting a bribe so openly when it would be easy to do out of view of anyone. Sounds like a bit of artistic license to me.
| vikdk wrote: |
- at first the PSB wanted him to sighn under a letter in Chinese, which, they said, stated he had been walking to China from Tibet and had been delayed hence no visa!!!! he refused to sighn - so money over the table and a months L visa for the guy, which he worked on and extended and worked again - my co-worker, after a month and a half of mistreatment followed me and ran seeking sanctuary on my floor.
Laws for FT's clark - I've seen them in action |
How does any of this prove your point vikdk. A teacher choosing to work illegally for a school that is willing to employ teachers illegally. That is no news in China and certainly the teachers and schools who partake in these activities need to accept that they are not protected by the law when choosing to act unlawfully.
My question was what experience do you have in pursuing your rights under the law? You suggest that the laws are toothless and that we foreigners have no rights here, but what exact experience with pursuing your rights do you base this upon? As I have stated many times before things are different in China. You need to actively pursue your rights here, but if you do this then you can get justice. What injustices have you encountered when pursuing your rights? |
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