Job Discussion Forums

[thelmadatter]

In a meeting today the idea came up as to where they do EFL best and what could we learn from them. Mostly because of reading the forums here I believe that most countries have a lot of problems getting most of their English students anywhere near fluency (or conversational ability). However, I went to Holland a number of times (I used to live in Germany) and found myself amazed at how well most Dutch speak English. YOu usually have to listen to a number of sentences before you realize (at least for this speaker of American English) that they are not native.

What do you all think? In general, what country does it best and why do you think that is?

[Pollux]

I guess Holland. Maybe you can shed some light on why that is so.
They don't seem to start learning English any time earlier than other Europeans,yet they do speak really well.
I was told by an English friend who speaks Dutch that it is easy to learn. I found it hard to believe and a simple look at a Dutch text made me wonder if he was joking or not. Does it have to do anything with the Jutes, Saxes, and the Angles?

[thelmadatter]

Its true that Dutch is the closest relative to English (both are West Germanic languages) but then Germans Norwegians and Swedes (other Germanic languages) should have a relatively simple time with English as well (Personally I found German MUCH easier to learn than Spanish). But Im not sure that is the full story, as in southern Germany it wasnt that terribly easy to find English speakers (dont know about Scandinavia).

My personal belief is that the Dutch attitude towards English as a lot to do with their success. Of the Dutch people I met, none felt that using English was any threat to their national/ethnic identity (a la Chirac and many Spanish speakers in the US) nor did they expect visitors to learn Dutch (I think with immigrants its another story as it should be). I got the feeling like Dutch was the "family" language ... to use with fellow Dutchmen and English was for speaking with everyone else. Being such a small country surrounded by various languages, the advantage of being bilingual is pretty obvious.

In other words, there is pervasive, obvious motivation to learn another language and little to none of the socio-political/cultural baggage one can encounter with other learners. Where I am at now, while I dont see quite the sense of identity threat that I saw on the US/Mexico border, what I strongly see is a very isolationist mentality. Indeed, many here think the world ends at the borders of Toluca, never mind Mexico. Many students (and their parents) just dont see the usefulness of learning another language ... they have almost no world perspective. Many of the Mexican teachers I have talked to here confirm my feelings on this.

However, at the meeting I think they were looking to see if in someplace similar to central Mexico (no serious, immediate need to use another language) has methodologies that might be useful to us. (Of course like all human beings, they would love to find that "magic bullet" that will make all our problems disappear immediately.)

While our methodology can stand improvement, its not the worst I have seen or heard of. What I do see is a serious need to motivate .... motivate in the sense of showing our kids that there is a huge world out there that Mexico really should participate in. Even if this is the case.... just how do you do that?

[Cdaniels]

I met a couple from the Holland in Mexico, and when they were asked about how they learned English so well, they gave credit to the amount of English language programming the Dutch watched on TV.
Scandinavians under 60 speak excellent English.
I think the family/public dualism also holds true up north. There are at least two competing dialects of Norwegian that have to share official status as part of a compromise. Many Western Finlanders are of Swedish ancestry and retain their Swedish identities, and there are nomadic Sami (Lapplanders) who live and travel in the northern parts of all three countries.
English is a good international language to use (profitably as well) not only between different Scandinavia countries, but even in intra-national communication. German is a second.

[GambateBingBangBOOM]

[tedkarma]

If you are talking true EFL - I'd say the Middle East - all business - and some very professional programs. The one I worked for in Saudi was seriously planned out and well implemented.

[Brooks]

I would have to say that the Dutch and Danes do a good job.
Also, Finland`s EFL program is pretty good.

[nomadder]

If all governments caught on to the anti-dubbing thing a lot of us would be out of work.

I agree that things like similarity of their language to English or lots of contact with people who don't speak their language and the desire to be out there in the world must help. No fear of losing your identity as well, a good thing. Most Europeans are great at English except some of the older ones especially in East Europe obviously and I found most Spaniards to have terrible English for some reason. Italians are hit and miss.

Spanish is much easier to learn than German. I find the Latin languages easier in general and according to some info I found once they are category 1(I think the Scandinavian and Dutch languages too) for easy while German is in 2 along with E. European languages etc.

Comes down to access and need I think.

[Justin Trullinger]

It's interesting to me that there isn't much EFL work for foreigners in either the Netherlands or Scandinavia. They have done well enough with their English learning programs that they can provide their own teachers.

In many ways, I consider the EFL industry, as it now exists, to be a stopgap measure. If successful, it will eventually die out. It's necessary right now in Ecuador, for example, because the percentage of Ecuadorians who know English well enough to teach it is so low. (I know 3.) But if we succeed in teaching it to this generation, they'll be able to teach the next generation themselves...

Justin

[dmb]

[hlamb]

I think it's also a prestige thing. Here in Mexico I know a couple of local teachers who speak excellent English. I make far more money than they do because I'm a native speaker. Many parents at the school where I teach insist on native speakers for their kids. It's the assumption that a native speaker can automatically teach better than someone who learned it as a second language. I know the accents, idioms and cultural aspects of English better than they do, true, but their knowledge of the grammar is at least as good as mine and maybe better.

[stillnosheep]

It is not just that Dutch is the closest related language to English (Frissian excepted), and that the people realise the importance of bilingualism and have a lot of exposure to English via television.

The OP referred to the relative lack of a noticeable foreign accent when Dutch people speak English. Dutch is a relatively flat, accentless, language and so Dutch speakers have a less distinctive accent to overcome when speaking other languages. They are also exceptionally good at speaking, for example, German without a noticeable foreign accent.

[ls650]

[GambateBingBangBOOM]

[stillnosheep]