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wangtesol
Joined: 24 May 2005
Posts: 280
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 Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 3:54 am Post subject: teaching in public schools is illegal |
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I had an interview with Shanghai Investment Union about teaching English in public schools in Shanghai.
Of course, there were many illegal things that the company was up to such as withholding wages (USD $200/month) and asking me to teach on a visitor visa while they processed the Z visa.
But at the heart of it, is the fact that it is simply illegal to teach in public schools in China. Period.
So, if I end up with a labour problem then I utterly have no recourse to labour laws, right?
The other odd thing was that they could not tell me who my employer would legally be (the public school or Shanghai Investment Union) and they couldn't tell me what their health insurance plan was. So they couldn't tell me what was medically covered. (It got worse when the interviewer started making fun of the language in the contract.) |
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clomper
Joined: 07 Oct 2003
Posts: 251
Location: Beijing
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| Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 4:58 am Post subject: |
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I think majority of the teachers at Dave's work for a public school. I'm working for a public middle school and I have the FEC and the RPF on my passport.
I don't know why they said it's illegal but maybe you need to look for another possible employer.  |
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amandabarrick
Joined: 30 Dec 2004
Posts: 391
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| Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 1:13 am Post subject: |
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But at the heart of it, is the fact that it is simply illegal to teach in public schools in China. Period.
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Are you joking?
That is totally erroneous. I doubt there is any evidence to support such a wild claim. There are thousands of foreigners in China who legally teach at public schools, including myself. The schools secure Residence Permits, Foreign Expert Certificates, etc... The schools have the appropriate status with the government to hire foreign teachers. The foreign teachers are registered with the local PSB. How would thousands of public schools be able to do that if it is illegal? My employer and myself have met with the local PSB, the office of Foreign Affairs, the Bureau of Education, etc... a number of times. I have never heard of anything so absurd.
AB |
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Roger
Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 9138
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| Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 3:08 am Post subject: |
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I too was stunned by that funny claim about working at public schools.
I believe the OP is deluding himself that he needs an "Investment Union" as a go-between to get work at such schools.
He would be well advised not to get hired by that outfit and to go straight for a job at a public school. |
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Midlothian Mapleheart
Joined: 26 May 2005
Posts: 623
Location: Elsewhere
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| Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 3:17 am Post subject: |
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Edited to remove offensive content.
Middy
Last edited by Midlothian Mapleheart on Mon May 29, 2006 5:50 am; edited 1 time in total |
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wangtesol
Joined: 24 May 2005
Posts: 280
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| Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 3:33 am Post subject: |
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Well, in Japan about 1500 teachers in public schools whose jobs violate School Education Law (setion 28.3) as well as Dispatch Law. The Ministry of Education even wrote an advisement saying that these 1500 jobs violated School Education Law, but the practice continues, foreigner workers still get visas for these jobs etc... So, of course, your job can be violating laws and the government will still issue you a visa. Happens all the time in Taiwan as well.
However, Japan does has provisions for allowing uncertified teachers to teach in their public schools. They re-wrote School Education Law to create a position called "Assistant Language Teacher" which is how 6000 non-Japanese workers have found themselves in schools in Japan.
In China though, they have no rewritten education laws. I found this at the Chinese Ministry of Education website on Chapter 3 of Education Law regarding "Qualifications" for teachers.....
http://www.moe.edu.cn/edoas/website18/info1428.htm
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Rule 11: Those qualifying as teachers must posses a relevant record of formal schooling; this is�
1) to obtain kindergarten teacher qualification: one must be a graduate of a Child Teacher Training Institution as well as more formal schooling
2) to obtain elementary teacher qualification: one must graduate from Middle School Teacher Training Education and more formal schooling
3) to obtain elementary school or secondary school qualifications, one must graduate from an elementary teacher training institution and must have graduated from a higher teacher training college for professionals or else posses a specialization of expertise from a university
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There is nothing in here that allows uncertified Chinese teachers to teach in public schools. So those who are uncertified and who do teach in public schools are violating Education Law. I have asked a couple of Chinese public school recruiters a law student in China about this, and they agreed that the jobs foreigners take in public schools do violate education law.
I guess it only matters in terms of how certified teachers in the schools might regard such an intrusion of uncertified teachers into the work place. In Taiwan, I taught in violation of education law at high schools, and I was treated like junk by the head English teacher. Maybe part of that was because I was there illegally.
There might be another angle though that benefits the non-Chinese teacher. There might be some way to put the company that places you there into a bind. We've been doing that in Japan.
We have been talking about the illegal nature of many jobs in the public school system for about a year now at the Japan forum (on ESL Cafe) - ever since the Ministry of Education declared in February 2005 that outsourced jobs in public schools violated School Education Law .
There is a company called Korakuen in Japan that illegally places English teachers into schools around Tokyo. he started doing the same thing in Shanghai a few years ago and still continues. Not all companies in Japan violate School Education Law, but this company owner, Mr. Iwate prides himself on the claim of being the first to do it in Japan over 30 years ago!
He is now facing a case against one of his employees for this illegal outsourcing.
Just go to this Tokyo union website (in English) http://www.nambufwc.org and look for Korakuen on right hand side of the page. |
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Super Mario
Joined: 27 May 2005
Posts: 1022
Location: Australia, previously China
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| Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 6:23 am Post subject: |
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So who gave the OP this information? The dodgy outfit?
Five years at two public universities; I never had a problem in any legal area: Z Visas, resident and FE permits, tax certificates, changing money legally.
So, what's the deal? |
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tirelesstravelerasia
Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 50
Location: Dalian, China
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| Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 7:15 am Post subject: |
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Yeah, I think it's actually the opposite - public and government schools are often the only ones who can provide Z visas, residence permits, etc. While the big chains like EF have secured the right to do the same (usually by bringing a minimum investment into the country), lots of the smaller language schools rely on F visas or cultivate a relationships with a public school that processes visas for them. In other words, the language school sends you out to the public school for a few hours as a kind of payment for the favour -- which in a sense would make that the only legal work you're doing, and the stuff you do elsewhere illegal!
These kinds of relationships often exist in China, and in fact 'legal' and 'illegal' are relative terms. If the school you're working for has the connections needed to get a Z visa, residence permits, legal currency exchange, etc. -- by whatever means -- you have little to worry about. It's simply a way for smaller groups to circumvent minimum instestment requirements before starting a school.
A friend of mine working for a language school in Nanjing found that his visa sponsor was actually his school's main competitor! How that one works out is anyone's guess.
The schools you have to watch for are the ones that can't provide the papers - they haven't yet cultivated a cozy enough relationship with the powers that be - and that could bite you in the a&% at some time in the future! |
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wangtesol
Joined: 24 May 2005
Posts: 280
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| Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 7:59 am Post subject: illegal public school jobs violate education law |
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My post refers to public elementary schools, junior high schools and high schools since this is what the education law refered to. I am not refering to universities.
When I wrote that these jobs are illegal, I am refering to whether the jobs violate education law. That is all. I am not saying that one should not get a visa for such work. I am simply saying that schools betray themselves as scofflaws whilst employing uncertified teachers who violate education law. |
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Mysterious Mark
Joined: 15 Dec 2004
Posts: 121
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| Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 8:05 am Post subject: |
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| wangtesol wrote: |
In China though, they have no rewritten education laws. I found this at the Chinese Ministry of Education website on Chapter 3 of Education Law regarding "Qualifications" for teachers.....
http://www.moe.edu.cn/edoas/website18/info1428.htm
| Quote: |
Rule 11: Those qualifying as teachers must posses a relevant record of formal schooling; this is�
1) to obtain kindergarten teacher qualification: one must be a graduate of a Child Teacher Training Institution as well as more formal schooling
2) to obtain elementary teacher qualification: one must graduate from Middle School Teacher Training Education and more formal schooling
3) to obtain elementary school or secondary school qualifications, one must graduate from an elementary teacher training institution and must have graduated from a higher teacher training college for professionals or else posses a specialization of expertise from a university
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There is nothing in here that allows uncertified Chinese teachers to teach in public schools. So those who are uncertified and who do teach in public schools are violating Education Law. I have asked a couple of Chinese public school recruiters a law student in China about this, and they agreed that the jobs foreigners take in public schools do violate education law.
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As soon as I read that I assumed that it was in reference to Chinese teachers only. Foreign teachers are governed by separate regulations, some parts of which (published by SAFEA, the State Administration of Foreign Expert Affairs or whatever it's called) have been quoted here before, mainly (entirely?) in the context of endless debates about visas.
I looked at the webpage and found that it's in Chinese. I went to the English homepage and searched through "Laws and Regulations" and found no page corresponding to the Chinese page in question, based on the dates given at the beginning.
For those interested in operating a school in China (it's come up in the past), the website does have "Regulations on Chinese-Foreign Cooperation in Running Schools" in English. |
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hairuo
Joined: 19 Mar 2006
Posts: 473
Location: Somewhere in China
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Roger
Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 9138
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| Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 3:48 pm Post subject: |
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| wangtesol wrote: |
http://www.moe.edu.cn/edoas/website18/info1428.htm
| Quote: |
Rule 11: Those qualifying as teachers must posses a relevant record of formal schooling; this is�
1) to obtain kindergarten teacher qualification: one must be a graduate of a Child Teacher Training Institution as well as more formal schooling
2) to obtain elementary teacher qualification: one must graduate from Middle School Teacher Training Education and more formal schooling
3) to obtain elementary school or secondary school qualifications, one must graduate from an elementary teacher training institution and must have graduated from a higher teacher training college for professionals or else posses a specialization of expertise from a university
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There is nothing in here that allows uncertified Chinese teachers to teach in public schools. So those who are uncertified and who do teach in public schools are violating Education Law. I have asked a couple of Chinese public school recruiters a law student in China about this, and they agreed that the jobs foreigners take in public schools do violate education law.
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I can't see how these stipulations can be interpreted to mean that FOREIGN ENGLISH TEACHERS cannot be hired by or for public primary or middle schools.
Maybe "rule 11" applies to SUBJECT TEACHERS excluding ENGLISH TEACHERS, i.e. Foreign English teachers. |
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wangtesol
Joined: 24 May 2005
Posts: 280
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| Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 6:29 pm Post subject: if education law is violate you do not have to teach class |
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I can't see how these stipulations can be interpreted to mean that FOREIGN ENGLISH TEACHERS cannot be hired by or for public primary or middle schools.
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Well, I never said that foreign English teachers cannot be hired. I simply asserted that this kind of work violates education law.
That SAFEA has regulations regarding the employment of foreign workers in China, does not mean that edcuation law and SAFEA's regulations will not come into conflict. As I noted, currently in Japan, 1500 English teachers in public schools in violation of School Education Law (http://alt.150m.com). Not becuase of their malevolence but because of unscrupulous companies and school boards. I personally lost a lot of respect of my school principal when I found this out. He is charged with upholding education law and he daily to enforces the schools rules, yet my job was illegal. And since it was, he was not in charge of me. He could not tell me to pay for school lunch or even go to class.
If one's job does violate education law, then the principal and school teachers have no legal right to tell you what to do. You do not even have to go to class to teach. |
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thepreferrednomenclature
Joined: 13 Jul 2005
Posts: 80
Location: Beijing, Chaoyang
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| Posted: Sat Mar 25, 2006 1:44 am Post subject: |
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| They also don't have to pay you or even blink an eye when they kick you to the curb. Boo-yah. |
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cj750
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
Posts: 3081
Location: Beijing
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| Posted: Sat Mar 25, 2006 6:44 am Post subject: |
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| not sure if teaching in public schools is agin the law...but how the student pays for such a service may be...the collecting of additional funds from the student may very ell be against the law and this may call into question the legality of teaching in a public school..if they cant get the funds from the government then the pay you receive likely has been collected in 5RMB amounts weekly ..paid by the students... |
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