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hesterprynne
Joined: 16 Sep 2003
Posts: 386
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 Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 9:53 am Post subject: corporal discipline in kindergarten |
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| If you see a Chinese teacher hitting or pushing a child or being verbally abusive- "No teacher here likes you!"- how do you react? |
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Steppenwolf
Joined: 30 Jul 2006
Posts: 1769
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| Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 10:14 am Post subject: |
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Hester, a good question and a clumsy, probably unhelpful answer:
I wouldn't do anything - or much.
If I discipline a kid using violent means I know the price I will have to pay; CHinese teachers are in a different station and you of all teachers can do nothing at all in such a case.
But I trust the parents of an abused child find ways and means to come back down on that teacher...
I for one wouldn't want to be in his or her skin...
(...although I happen to know that an inordinate amount of physical and mental abuse is going on unpunished). But then again - don't you think that sending one's child to a Chinese teaching enterprise is the premeditated first step to committing real cruelty to your child? |
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no_exit
Joined: 12 Oct 2004
Posts: 565
Location: Kunming
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| Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 10:29 am Post subject: |
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I can't imagine anything I could do that wouldn't be ignored or met with contempt. This kind of abuse is completely acceptable to many Chinese parents, not only in the classroom, but at home at well. I can't count how many times I've had a parent come up to me dragging their kid by the arm and tell me how I needed to be stricter with their child because he was a stupid, lazy, good-for-nothing. One parent even gave me liscence to HIT their child! 
I think that were any FT to interfere with a Chinese teacher disciplining a student, it would simply be taken as another case of the foreigner meddling with internal Chinese matters. Outside suggestions or protestations are not usually welcome in this society.
I hate to say that I'd do nothing. I'd probably speak with the administration about the situation, and suggest that perhaps we have a meeting to discuss how to appropriately discipline children. I know that idea probably makes you want to roll your eyes, but I don't think rescuing the child or calling the Chinese teacher out on the spot would win me any respect and could possibly even make the situation worse. I've never been in a situation like that before, not at a school where I was a teacher, although I've heard stories from my students, their parents, and have witnessed some questionable things while visiting local kindergartens and primary schools.
I'd be interested in hearing if anyone thinks that a FT could actually do anything this situation that would make a difference. If so, what? |
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MITCH
Joined: 18 Aug 2006
Posts: 58
Location: China
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| Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 10:37 am Post subject: |
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Dear Sir,
I would ignore it too, unless it's unjustified. In most cases it's justified.
It's the Chinese teachers/TA's job to do that.
I would love to know who that Chinese lady is? Give me one of those!
She's doing her job, and better her than me. Some Chinese teachers are really soft, and then what, you have to do the disciplining yourself.
Ignore it, unless it's blatant child abuse.
It helps if you can speak Chinese, then you know the reason for the disciplining.
A good whipping for a child who has done the wrong thing, is not bad in my book. Especially for repeat offenders. |
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MITCH
Joined: 18 Aug 2006
Posts: 58
Location: China
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| Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 10:50 am Post subject: |
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I've got to tell you this story.
During recess, a 12 year old child runs at me, and throws his best shot at my solar plexus. For no reason other than i may have made him lose face in class.
Then with a calulated reflex action the right hand goes for it.
SMACK, right open hand to the left cheek. Boy that felt good.
I look around, and the parents are watching.
No complaints, no bull*t.
That kid was the best behaved kid for the rest of my teaching at that school.
That's the only time i've ever hit a kid. I don't recommend it. I'm lucky i didn't get pulled up. |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 11:09 am Post subject: |
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| I have in 3 different kindies verbally battered infront of other members of staff members - with a translator - those who I consider to be irresponsible cruel teachers - for excessivly violent verbal and physical treatment of children. In my eyeshot this kind of behaviour suddenly stops - in one case the teacher avoided me or my classes for over one year (this year she has started attending again). There has never been any reprecusions from head-mistresses(and one head-master) or other staff members - which is also a bit of a shame since I would like to realy show how displeased I am with this type of conduct. However I have had the chance to discuss suitable methods of maintaning suitable levels of discipline (both child and kindy teacher) during teacher training periods - and believe me the local teachers do realise what sometimes goes on the kindy classroom is a real no no. I am now going into my fourth year in most of my kindies - so speaking your mind and acting and acting with respect to bad teaching method doesn't seem to be reason for a kindy giving you the sack. |
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no_exit
Joined: 12 Oct 2004
Posts: 565
Location: Kunming
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| Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 11:30 am Post subject: |
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| vikdk wrote: |
| I have in 3 different kindies verbally battered infront of other members of staff members - with a translator - those who I consider to be irresponsible cruel teachers - for excessivly violent verbal and physical treatment of children. In my eyeshot this kind of behaviour suddenly stops - in one case the teacher avoided me or my classes for over one year (this year she has started attending again). There has never been any reprecusions from head-mistresses(and one head-master) or other staff members - which is also a bit of a shame since I would like to realy show how displeased I am with this type of conduct. However I have had the chance to discuss suitable methods of maintaning suitable levels of discipline (both child and kindy teacher) during teacher training periods - and believe me the local teachers do realise what sometimes goes on the kindy classroom is a real no no. I am now going into my fourth year in most of my kindies - so speaking your mind and acting and acting with respect to bad teaching method doesn't seem to be reason for a kindy giving you the sack. |
I don't mean negative repercussions for the teacher per se, but my line of thought was that if a Chinese teacher were called out by the FT for being abusive to a student, and therefore lost some face, that teacher might be spiteful towards that student, or perhaps would be even more harsh in disciplinary measures just to prove a point. Although it seems like what happened in your case is probably more likely vik, the teacher, having lost face, would slink off and hide herself from you for the rest of the year.
I'm glad to hear that you brought up appropriate discipline during meetings. I think the best course of action would be to drive the point home again and again with the administration, and try to make sure that as many teachers are trained in how to administer discipline without abusing the kids. It occurs to me that lots of Chinese teachers simply don't realize that what they're doing is harmful to the child -- it is how they were dealt with when they were in kindergarten, afterall.
And I totally disagree with you MITCH. While parents can, and do, discipline their children however they want in their own home (stopping short of true abuse, of course), we, as teachers, can't take those sorts of liberties with other people's children. I would be furious if I found out my child was being smacked by his teachers at school and would probably call for that teacher's removal. It is up to the parents to decide whether their child should be hit or not, and you're the teacher, not the parent, so you simply don't have the right to lay a hand on a student. You got lucky, you had Chinese parents watching who probably approved of corporal punishment, but you could get into serious trouble for hitting students and I wouldn't do it if I were you. I got called out once for grabbing a child by the upper arm and walking him to the principal's office and had to apologize to the child and his mother, so there are some parents who would get very upset about this sort of thing. |
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MITCH
Joined: 18 Aug 2006
Posts: 58
Location: China
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| Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 12:05 pm Post subject: |
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I have right of comeback.
No Exit wrote:
| Quote: |
| And I totally disagree with you MITCH. While parents can, and do, discipline their children however they want in their own home (stopping short of true abuse, of course), we, as teachers, can't take those sorts of liberties with other people's children. I would be furious if I found out my child was being smacked by his teachers at school and would probably call for that teacher's removal. It is up to the parents to decide whether their child should be hit or not, and you're the teacher, not the parent, so you simply don't have the right to lay a hand on a student. You got lucky, you had Chinese parents watching who probably approved of corporal punishment, but you could get into serious trouble for hitting students and I wouldn't do it if I were you. I got called out once for grabbing a child by the upper arm and walking him to the principal's office and had to apologize to the child and his mother, so there are some parents who would get very upset about this sort of thing. |
I mentioned that i was lucky i didn't get pulled up. (Lose my job on the spot.) The reason the child hit me, was partly because my TA was not disciplining the children at all.
Of course i don't recommend an FT hit a child. I abhor anyone hitting a child unless you were the parent, and then i believe you should have that choice.
As for kindergarten aged children. No need to hit, i believe. A simple chat with body language usually does the job.
The Chinese teachers are instructed in many cases to take care of the discipline. I agree hitting is not necessary with 99% of 4-6 year olds. I remember one 5 year old, would attack his classmates at any opportunity. You have to put a stop to that. Yes i agree, you don't need to hit him just because he hits other pupils. But, if he is to remain in that class, you need to discipline him severely to get the correct response. |
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hesterprynne
Joined: 16 Sep 2003
Posts: 386
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| Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 12:14 pm Post subject: wo jue de hen sen chi scrw cultural relativism |
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| I speak enough Chinese to know that she was saying something about the child having something in his mouth. She was methodically hitting his hand again and again until it was bright red- at least seven times. He can't be more than four and not very bright so far so she should have had some compassion. I went to the administrator who had asked me to report such things and she said she would talk to her. I absolutely expect this bee ahtch teacher to make my life harder but I would have had no respect for myself as a human if I did not at least try to curb this behavior. In fact, I make a point of telling these teachers that if someone ever hit my child I would punch her lights out. |
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no_exit
Joined: 12 Oct 2004
Posts: 565
Location: Kunming
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| Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 12:24 pm Post subject: |
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| MITCH wrote: |
I have right of comeback.
No Exit wrote:
| Quote: |
| And I totally disagree with you MITCH. While parents can, and do, discipline their children however they want in their own home (stopping short of true abuse, of course), we, as teachers, can't take those sorts of liberties with other people's children. I would be furious if I found out my child was being smacked by his teachers at school and would probably call for that teacher's removal. It is up to the parents to decide whether their child should be hit or not, and you're the teacher, not the parent, so you simply don't have the right to lay a hand on a student. You got lucky, you had Chinese parents watching who probably approved of corporal punishment, but you could get into serious trouble for hitting students and I wouldn't do it if I were you. I got called out once for grabbing a child by the upper arm and walking him to the principal's office and had to apologize to the child and his mother, so there are some parents who would get very upset about this sort of thing. |
I mentioned that i was lucky i didn't get pulled up. (Lose my job on the spot.) The reason the child hit me, was partly because my TA was not disciplining the children at all.
Of course i don't recommend an FT hit a child. I abhor anyone hitting a child unless you were the parent, and then i believe you should have that choice.
As for kindergarten aged children. No need to hit, i believe. A simple chat with body language usually does the job.
The Chinese teachers are instructed in many cases to take care of the discipline. I agree hitting is not necessary with 99% of 4-6 year olds. I remember one 5 year old, would attack his classmates at any opportunity. You have to put a stop to that. Yes i agree, you don't need to hit him just because he hits other pupils. But, if he is to remain in that class, you need to discipline him severely to get the correct response. |
This explains your position a bit better mitch, and I'm sorry if I came down on you too harshly, your first post came off like you were advocating the use of corporal punishment by teachers.
I think that if children are hitting other children, then hitting them in return isn't the best message to send, and on top of that, it's not necessary. So many teachers in all over the world manage their classrooms without corporal punishment, so obviously there are much more effective and less upsetting ways of punishing small children.
I can understand your purely instinctual reaction to being punched by a 12 year old boy as well. I had a teacher tell me that he had slapped a 12 year old in the face for using extremely offensive sexual language with a female student. He claimed it did the job and that the parents would have approved if they had known what the kid said. I, however, feel like teachers cross a line when they get physical with students, no matter what the circumstance. In the US any teacher laying so much as a finger on a student would most likely face dismissal, as the uproar would be huge. China isn't the US, and corporal punishment in schools is more common, but that doesn't mean we should risk it. FTs and CTs alike should control their tempers if they value their jobs at all (not to mention their students' welfare  ). |
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MITCH
Joined: 18 Aug 2006
Posts: 58
Location: China
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| Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 12:37 pm Post subject: |
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Hester,
Well, i have never had to tell a Chinese teacher or TA, that her disciplining of a child was too much. I feel that looking at each circumstance on it's merits is important, and generally the Chinese TA's i have dealt with do a good job. They are a reflection of your classroom management. 
The overall class management is up to the FT, so if you think the discipline is excessive, tell him/her "tai duo le!" (too much). And hitting is not necessary. Explain to the TA it's better to have a chat, and to get a verbal committment from the child that they won't do it again. I don't know if chatting to the principal is the answer for your TA's first offence.
I try to control the situation. Also, build the rapport with your TA, and they will follow your direction.
I'm not a *beep* really. |
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Crippler
Joined: 03 Jan 2004
Posts: 141
Location: Dongguan
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| Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 1:36 pm Post subject: |
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I saw a dean at our school kicking a boy about twice his size and the boy stood and laughed at him. I saw another student hitting a teacher and other teachers watched. I also saw a man being kicked by his 6 year old and he just stood and took it. In neither case did violence end up resolving the problem. But I have also watched some good teachers verbally being able to address behavior problems and bring the toughest kid in the class to tears..
No real point to this other than violence has very little to do with teaching discipline. It generally just teaches violence. |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 2:35 pm Post subject: |
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I personally think that - if we know it's wrong - that all our own personal stories of where we have come to use some form of violence against children - should be kept out of these forums - unless those accounts lead you to beleive in a 100% understandeble manner that thinking teachers cannot back such practices - and that by using them we have made a great mistake. We are all human - and we can all reach a breaking point - but the problem is that by telling all here, we are advertising practices that might influence those FT's with rather laxer professional codes and poor training to think that these techniques not only are effective but you can even get away with them here. In this respect Mitch's second post is perticularly repugnant - even if I'm sure he knows he knows he did wrong  |
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hesterprynne
Joined: 16 Sep 2003
Posts: 386
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| Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 9:41 pm Post subject: MITCH! |
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| In this case, MITCH, it would not be a reflection of my classroom management. I stayed late to look at some workbooks and they were all coming back in after an outdoor activity of some kind. I just happened to be there beyond my daily two hours. Unfortunately, it is hardly bee atch's first offense- the Chinese teachers daily push and pull by the ears and so on. This was just so deliberate- hitting the child every few seconds so methodically that he cringed before the next blow- it was very hard to watch- if looks could kill she would be dead. I used to communicate directly with the teachers in this school but I have found that they do not like instruction from a foreigner so I do not waste my breath. The kids are great and it could be a great school without such mindless instruction as "Do not speak too loudly- you will scare the kids"----"The four-year-olds have no time to color during the school day or at home" and the classic "Real teachers don't ask for a teacher's manual". Oh and yesterday's golden nugget. "The children will listen if you say who is good. Say 'I like Sally, I don't like Jimmy' "...... |
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MITCH
Joined: 18 Aug 2006
Posts: 58
Location: China
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| Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 1:49 am Post subject: |
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Vikdk wrote:
| Quote: |
| I personally think that - if we know it's wrong - that all our own personal stories of where we have come to use some form of violence against children - should be kept out of these forums - unless those accounts lead you to beleive in a 100% understandeble manner that thinking teachers cannot back such practices - and that by using them we have made a great mistake. We are all human - and we can all reach a breaking point - but the problem is that by telling all here, we are advertising practices that might influence those FT's with rather laxer professional codes and poor training to think that these techniques not only are effective but you can even get away with them here. In this respect Mitch's second post is perticularly repugnant - even if I'm sure he knows he knows he did wrong |
� You want me to suppress my freedom of speech? Not in this lifetime.
� I know I did wrong in that case, but I got the result I wanted. Call it impolite behavior, call it tit for tat, call it whatever you like.
Commonsense: We all know hitting is wrong. It is against the law to harm someone. I was exonerated by the parents for my action.
The adults viewing this forum can make their own judgements on what is appropriate behavior.
I must say a FT caught hitting, depending on the severity of the act, can be sent to jail, exported, or worse. I did say I don�t recommend it.
�We are all human - and we can all reach a breaking point�
That was not a breaking point for me, because I meant to hit the child. I was in total control at that point. I didn�t harm the child; he just had his ears ring for a while after that. We through experience adjust our responses and behaviors.
After that experience in that classroom, I adjusted my behavior to the point that if a child did that again, then I would not reciprocate.
In another incident after that, I got kicked in the groin by a different child, and having already adjusted my behavior (made a conscious decision, because I thought it was not necessary, nor the right thing to do�and I have never thought it the right thing to do), I did not hit the child who kicked me.
Instead, I thought I would do it a different way� I asked the principal to remove the child from the school. She refused, and I had a very animated discussion with her, to the point where I alienated myself from her and the Chinese staff. I told her I want to press charges against the child or have the child removed from the school, or both.
The local principal ignored me. The child was the worst behaved in the school, was violent, with serious psychological problems, but was the son of a doctor. That doctor has a lot to answer for......
I don�t think I am advertising these kinds of negative practices. There are clauses in our contracts that prevent us from getting away with anything. For example:
1. Party B shall respect the Chinese people's moral standards and customs.
2. Party B shall not stay alone with female students in Party B�s apartment, shall not take picture alone with female students and shall not fall in love with female students.
Comments like yours and mine are exactly what this forum is about, to suppress them ... are you the Thought Police?.
If I raise discussion by making a �controversial� comment or personal experience then I believe that I have contributed to the airing of our experiences, opinions and to suppress that because one OP believes I shouldn�t talk about these things is just that � his opinion. |
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