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dribom
Joined: 04 May 2006 Posts: 17 Location: USA
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Posted: Wed May 10, 2006 10:07 pm Post subject: Method Teaching |
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Hey� so, having gotten a nibble from Berlitz in San Luis Potosi I am wondering what people have to say about method teaching. Specifically, how commonly is it advanced by institutions and how can I avoid it?
I�m not very interested in Berlitz right now mostly because I wonder what the value of being CELTA certified is if they want to retrain you in a very different method. I understand that the Berlitz method is almost purely oral, and while I appreciate that this works for some people, the idea that there is a linguistic cure all smacks of laziness and fraud to me.
Also, my impression from having studied with Latin Americans abroad and studied Spanish for many years is that (in general) Latin American students are more accustomed to traditional teaching methods, relying heavily on grammar tables. Yes� I realize that this a HUGE generalization, and I understand things vary even school to school. But there is also the fact that I actually believe in learning/teaching grammar.
Now I sound like a cruel school marm� but I swear I�m not that droll of a person.
Any feedback? |
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ls650

Joined: 10 May 2003 Posts: 3484 Location: British Columbia
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Posted: Wed May 10, 2006 11:13 pm Post subject: Re: Method Teaching |
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dribom wrote: |
Latin American students are more accustomed to traditional teaching methods, relying heavily on grammar tables. |
Yes, I think your generalization is (more or less) correct.
I also find that most of my first year university students, after spending years studying under such traditional methods, don't know a damn lick of English - so clearly those traditional "grammar centered" methods don't work very well (or at all).
Grammar is important, but there's a lot more to English than just grammar. |
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hlamb
Joined: 09 Dec 2003 Posts: 431 Location: Canada
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Posted: Thu May 11, 2006 1:44 am Post subject: Re: Method Teaching |
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ls650 wrote: |
Grammar is important, but there's a lot more to English than just grammar. |
Well said. It's essential that the students study grammar, but even more important that they learn how to apply it. My students, especially the adults, want a lot of grammar explanations. That's fine to a point, but I'm more interested in how well they communicate.
I believe that relying too much on any one of the four language skills is a mistake. A class with an emphasis on oral expression is great and valuable but a lot of people are visual learners and need to see things before they understand. That's why relying on any one method or textbook or whatever is a mistake. |
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Dragonlady

Joined: 10 May 2004 Posts: 720 Location: Chillinfernow, Canada
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Posted: Thu May 11, 2006 2:28 am Post subject: |
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out of date
Last edited by Dragonlady on Sun Sep 26, 2010 7:41 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Guy Courchesne

Joined: 10 Mar 2003 Posts: 9650 Location: Mexico City
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Posted: Thu May 11, 2006 3:11 am Post subject: |
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I've worked mostly with adults, long out of school (except for two Korean girls for whom grammar is an hors d'oeuvre) and in their careers. Most seem to be either flummoxed by too much grammar or completely uninterested in it, preferring a more practical and readily usable approach. Code for 'conversation' class, so one has to slip in the grammar by function and context. |
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dribom
Joined: 04 May 2006 Posts: 17 Location: USA
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Posted: Thu May 11, 2006 4:32 pm Post subject: Re: Method Teaching |
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ls650 wrote: |
I also find that most of my first year university students, after spending years studying under such traditional methods, don't know a damn lick of English - so clearly those traditional "grammar centered" methods don't work very well (or at all).
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From everyone's replies I take it that grammar teaching without context or practical application is a big problem. How else could you study for years and not pick up anything?
So you can't learn a language by looking at endless tables (my brief but traumatizing experience with Greek taught me that!), but don't you think that adults need some intellectual orientation when learning a language?
I think, the way that it was explained to me, Berlitz particularly feels that adult students should learn language the way children do - through emmersion and absorption. But it seems to me that adults (including teens) are past that point. |
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MO39

Joined: 28 Jan 2004 Posts: 1970 Location: El ombligo de la Rep�blica Mexicana
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Posted: Thu May 11, 2006 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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After teaching ESL/EFL to adults over many years in various countries and different kinds of schools, I have developed my own eclectic method of teaching, which means whatever works is what I do in the classroom. Adults with some amount of formal education usually appreciate a certain amount of explanation (grammatical, cultural, situational) along with opportunities for practicing the language (speaking, writing, reading). Some people pick up new words and structures aurally while others need to see them in written form before they sink into the part of the brain dealing with language.
As I see it, the problem with Berlitz is you do things "their way or the highway" with no chances for the teacher to figure out what's best for the particular students they're working with at any one time. I'm in complete agreement with dribom that the majority of adults do not learn a second language the way they learned their first, making the Berlitz method counterproductive except for those linguistically-gifted people who are capable of picking up second (and third and fourth) languages through immersion methods, like the Berlitz variety. |
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ls650

Joined: 10 May 2003 Posts: 3484 Location: British Columbia
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Posted: Thu May 11, 2006 7:55 pm Post subject: Re: Method Teaching |
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dribom wrote: |
Berlitz particularly feels that adult students should learn language the way children do - through emmersion and absorption. But it seems to me that adults (including teens) are past that point. |
Why? Adults don't/can't learn by immersion and absorption? I don't agree.
My dictionary defines grammar as "the system of rules implicit in a language, viewed as a mechanism for generating all sentences possible in that language. "
Imagine trying to learn how to drive a car by reading a book about the legal rules of the road: red means stop, don't overtake on a solid line, whatever. All of that is obviously very important to know, but what about other factors: how to use a clutch, how to use the accelerator, how to avoid locking up your brakes, how to shoulder check, how to parallel park, etc. ?
There's far, far more to learning how to operate a car than learning traffic rules. I think that the analogy can be applied to language learning: of course it's vital to study the rules, but they're merely one component of learning how to use a language. |
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Cdaniels
Joined: 21 Mar 2005 Posts: 663 Location: Dunwich, Massachusetts
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Posted: Thu May 11, 2006 9:02 pm Post subject: Re: Method Teaching |
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ls650 wrote: |
dribom wrote: |
Berlitz particularly feels that adult students should learn language the way children do - through emmersion and absorption. But it seems to me that adults (including teens) are past that point. |
Why? Adults don't/can't learn by immersion and absorption? I don't agree. |
I think the point is moot. How much money can you get from adults using any approach and over how long a period a time?
Seriously, even if their method only works for a small minority, Berlitz can use the success of these few students to perpetuate their business indefinitely into the future.
I'm sure there are a small number of people who, as adults, can learn purely from immersion and absorption- but those people generally don't pay for language lessons!  |
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dribom
Joined: 04 May 2006 Posts: 17 Location: USA
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Posted: Thu May 11, 2006 9:35 pm Post subject: Re: Method Teaching |
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ls650 wrote: |
Why? Adults don't/can't learn by immersion and absorption? I don't agree.
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I know that some adults can. In fact, I have a friend that drives me nuts because she can pick out words and patterns from a strange language with almost no exposure, and make sense of them! But she's never bothered to pursue a foreign language.
However, in general, I think the differences attested to by psychologists and linguists between the child and adult brain shows. Most people need some orientation.
ls650 wrote: |
My dictionary defines grammar as "the system of rules implicit in a language, viewed as a mechanism for generating all sentences possible in that language. "...
There's far, far more to learning how to operate a car than learning traffic rules. I think that the analogy can be applied to language learning: of course it's vital to study the rules, but they're merely one component of learning how to use a language. |
While perhaps an intuitive understanding of momentum and direction is essential to not immediately killing oneself behind the wheel, I would prefer to drive with someone who knew stop sign etiquette. (Ooo... fun with analogies ) |
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ls650

Joined: 10 May 2003 Posts: 3484 Location: British Columbia
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Posted: Thu May 11, 2006 10:05 pm Post subject: Re: Method Teaching |
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dribom wrote: |
While perhaps an intuitive understanding of momentum and direction is essential to not immediately killing oneself behind the wheel, I would prefer to drive with someone who knew stop sign etiquette. |
I'd prefer to drive with someone who knew both.  |
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MELEE

Joined: 22 Jan 2003 Posts: 2583 Location: The Mexican Hinterland
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Posted: Fri May 12, 2006 4:10 pm Post subject: Re: Method Teaching |
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ls650 wrote: |
There's far, far more to learning how to operate a car than learning traffic rules. |
HOW FUNNY! Mexicans, at least in my corner of the country, don't think traffic rules have anything to do with learning how to drive. They think knowing how to drive is mearly knowing how to operate a car.
Maybe that's why English (from their previous experiences) is such a muddle in their heads. |
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Ben Round de Bloc
Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Posts: 1946
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Posted: Mon May 15, 2006 10:31 am Post subject: Re: Method Teaching |
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Dragonlady wrote: |
Here in/at our private (non-profit) school (southern Mexico) we test SS based on 5 skills - grammar/vocab, listening, speaking, reading, writing. However, Ministry of Education is only interested in the last 4. Our SS know this and approach the grammar/vocab exam with indifference. |
I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here. Could you explain this further? |
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