Site Search:
 
Get TEFL Certified & Start Your Adventure Today!
Teach English Abroad and Get Paid to see the World!
Job Discussion Forums Forum Index Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Students and Teachers from Around the World!"
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Method Teaching

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> Mexico
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
dribom



Joined: 04 May 2006
Posts: 17
Location: USA

PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 10:07 pm    Post subject: Method Teaching Reply with quote

Hey� so, having gotten a nibble from Berlitz in San Luis Potosi I am wondering what people have to say about method teaching. Specifically, how commonly is it advanced by institutions and how can I avoid it?

I�m not very interested in Berlitz right now mostly because I wonder what the value of being CELTA certified is if they want to retrain you in a very different method. I understand that the Berlitz method is almost purely oral, and while I appreciate that this works for some people, the idea that there is a linguistic cure all smacks of laziness and fraud to me.

Also, my impression from having studied with Latin Americans abroad and studied Spanish for many years is that (in general) Latin American students are more accustomed to traditional teaching methods, relying heavily on grammar tables. Yes� I realize that this a HUGE generalization, and I understand things vary even school to school. But there is also the fact that I actually believe in learning/teaching grammar.

Now I sound like a cruel school marm� but I swear I�m not that droll of a person.

Any feedback?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
ls650



Joined: 10 May 2003
Posts: 3484
Location: British Columbia

PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 11:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Method Teaching Reply with quote

dribom wrote:
Latin American students are more accustomed to traditional teaching methods, relying heavily on grammar tables.

Yes, I think your generalization is (more or less) correct.

I also find that most of my first year university students, after spending years studying under such traditional methods, don't know a damn lick of English - so clearly those traditional "grammar centered" methods don't work very well (or at all).

Grammar is important, but there's a lot more to English than just grammar.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
hlamb



Joined: 09 Dec 2003
Posts: 431
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2006 1:44 am    Post subject: Re: Method Teaching Reply with quote

ls650 wrote:

Grammar is important, but there's a lot more to English than just grammar.



Well said. It's essential that the students study grammar, but even more important that they learn how to apply it. My students, especially the adults, want a lot of grammar explanations. That's fine to a point, but I'm more interested in how well they communicate.

I believe that relying too much on any one of the four language skills is a mistake. A class with an emphasis on oral expression is great and valuable but a lot of people are visual learners and need to see things before they understand. That's why relying on any one method or textbook or whatever is a mistake.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Dragonlady



Joined: 10 May 2004
Posts: 720
Location: Chillinfernow, Canada

PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2006 2:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

deleted

out of date


Last edited by Dragonlady on Sun Sep 26, 2010 7:41 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Guy Courchesne



Joined: 10 Mar 2003
Posts: 9650
Location: Mexico City

PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2006 3:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've worked mostly with adults, long out of school (except for two Korean girls for whom grammar is an hors d'oeuvre) and in their careers. Most seem to be either flummoxed by too much grammar or completely uninterested in it, preferring a more practical and readily usable approach. Code for 'conversation' class, so one has to slip in the grammar by function and context.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
dribom



Joined: 04 May 2006
Posts: 17
Location: USA

PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2006 4:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Method Teaching Reply with quote

ls650 wrote:


I also find that most of my first year university students, after spending years studying under such traditional methods, don't know a damn lick of English - so clearly those traditional "grammar centered" methods don't work very well (or at all).




From everyone's replies I take it that grammar teaching without context or practical application is a big problem. How else could you study for years and not pick up anything?

So you can't learn a language by looking at endless tables (my brief but traumatizing experience with Greek taught me that!), but don't you think that adults need some intellectual orientation when learning a language?

I think, the way that it was explained to me, Berlitz particularly feels that adult students should learn language the way children do - through emmersion and absorption. But it seems to me that adults (including teens) are past that point.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
MO39



Joined: 28 Jan 2004
Posts: 1970
Location: El ombligo de la Rep�blica Mexicana

PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2006 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

After teaching ESL/EFL to adults over many years in various countries and different kinds of schools, I have developed my own eclectic method of teaching, which means whatever works is what I do in the classroom. Adults with some amount of formal education usually appreciate a certain amount of explanation (grammatical, cultural, situational) along with opportunities for practicing the language (speaking, writing, reading). Some people pick up new words and structures aurally while others need to see them in written form before they sink into the part of the brain dealing with language.

As I see it, the problem with Berlitz is you do things "their way or the highway" with no chances for the teacher to figure out what's best for the particular students they're working with at any one time. I'm in complete agreement with dribom that the majority of adults do not learn a second language the way they learned their first, making the Berlitz method counterproductive except for those linguistically-gifted people who are capable of picking up second (and third and fourth) languages through immersion methods, like the Berlitz variety.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
ls650



Joined: 10 May 2003
Posts: 3484
Location: British Columbia

PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2006 7:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Method Teaching Reply with quote

dribom wrote:
Berlitz particularly feels that adult students should learn language the way children do - through emmersion and absorption. But it seems to me that adults (including teens) are past that point.

Why? Adults don't/can't learn by immersion and absorption? I don't agree.

My dictionary defines grammar as "the system of rules implicit in a language, viewed as a mechanism for generating all sentences possible in that language. "

Imagine trying to learn how to drive a car by reading a book about the legal rules of the road: red means stop, don't overtake on a solid line, whatever. All of that is obviously very important to know, but what about other factors: how to use a clutch, how to use the accelerator, how to avoid locking up your brakes, how to shoulder check, how to parallel park, etc. ?

There's far, far more to learning how to operate a car than learning traffic rules. I think that the analogy can be applied to language learning: of course it's vital to study the rules, but they're merely one component of learning how to use a language.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Cdaniels



Joined: 21 Mar 2005
Posts: 663
Location: Dunwich, Massachusetts

PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2006 9:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Method Teaching Reply with quote

ls650 wrote:
dribom wrote:
Berlitz particularly feels that adult students should learn language the way children do - through emmersion and absorption. But it seems to me that adults (including teens) are past that point.

Why? Adults don't/can't learn by immersion and absorption? I don't agree.

I think the point is moot. How much money can you get from adults using any approach and over how long a period a time? Wink
Seriously, even if their method only works for a small minority, Berlitz can use the success of these few students to perpetuate their business indefinitely into the future.
I'm sure there are a small number of people who, as adults, can learn purely from immersion and absorption- but those people generally don't pay for language lessons! Very Happy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
dribom



Joined: 04 May 2006
Posts: 17
Location: USA

PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2006 9:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Method Teaching Reply with quote

ls650 wrote:

Why? Adults don't/can't learn by immersion and absorption? I don't agree.


I know that some adults can. In fact, I have a friend that drives me nuts because she can pick out words and patterns from a strange language with almost no exposure, and make sense of them! But she's never bothered to pursue a foreign language.

However, in general, I think the differences attested to by psychologists and linguists between the child and adult brain shows. Most people need some orientation.

ls650 wrote:

My dictionary defines grammar as "the system of rules implicit in a language, viewed as a mechanism for generating all sentences possible in that language. "...

There's far, far more to learning how to operate a car than learning traffic rules. I think that the analogy can be applied to language learning: of course it's vital to study the rules, but they're merely one component of learning how to use a language.


While perhaps an intuitive understanding of momentum and direction is essential to not immediately killing oneself behind the wheel, I would prefer to drive with someone who knew stop sign etiquette. (Ooo... fun with analogies Very Happy )
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
ls650



Joined: 10 May 2003
Posts: 3484
Location: British Columbia

PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2006 10:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Method Teaching Reply with quote

dribom wrote:
While perhaps an intuitive understanding of momentum and direction is essential to not immediately killing oneself behind the wheel, I would prefer to drive with someone who knew stop sign etiquette.

I'd prefer to drive with someone who knew both. Wink
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
MELEE



Joined: 22 Jan 2003
Posts: 2583
Location: The Mexican Hinterland

PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2006 4:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Method Teaching Reply with quote

ls650 wrote:


There's far, far more to learning how to operate a car than learning traffic rules.


HOW FUNNY! Mexicans, at least in my corner of the country, don't think traffic rules have anything to do with learning how to drive. They think knowing how to drive is mearly knowing how to operate a car.

Maybe that's why English (from their previous experiences) is such a muddle in their heads.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Ben Round de Bloc



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 1946

PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2006 10:31 am    Post subject: Re: Method Teaching Reply with quote

Dragonlady wrote:
Here in/at our private (non-profit) school (southern Mexico) we test SS based on 5 skills - grammar/vocab, listening, speaking, reading, writing. However, Ministry of Education is only interested in the last 4. Our SS know this and approach the grammar/vocab exam with indifference.

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here. Could you explain this further?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> Mexico All times are GMT
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


This page is maintained by the one and only Dave Sperling.
Contact Dave's ESL Cafe
Copyright © 2018 Dave Sperling. All Rights Reserved.

Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group

Teaching Jobs in China
Teaching Jobs in China