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underblow
Joined: 06 May 2006
Posts: 9
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 Posted: Mon May 08, 2006 4:38 pm Post subject: Picking a conversation school, NOVA, GEOS, ECC, e.t.c. |
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I�m a graduate who is very keen to teach English in a �conversation school� in Japan. I'm not nescesarilly looking for a "proper" job, or lots of �$ I have lived off a low income my whole life, and I prefer partime if I can get it. That said I am, have and can do full time. Here are my options as I see them:
NOVA
PROS: Reliable sounding company. You know where you stand with them. Often cited as a good 'launch pad'. Can change location mid-contract?
CONS: No vacation. Inflexible 40hr week.
GABA
PROS: Very flexible. Maybe a more 'casual' sort of work?
CONS: Bad pay. Bad reputation. Can't sponsor visa? Don't help with your accomodation?
GEOS
PROS: More holidays than NOVA. Slightly better reputation than NOVA in most respects.
CONS: Inflexible 40hr week. Potentially mountains of paperwork (maybe).
AEON
PROS: I don�t know anything about them yet!
CONS: I don�t know anything about them yet!
JET
I considered JET for many years, but I have concluded that I do not want to work in schools, as I would rather not be responsible for maintaining discipline in large classes of children. I would rather teach small classes of adults (and the odd child) in private �schools�, and I prefer �for-profit� work places.
ECC
PRO: Good reputation. Decent holidays. 29 hour week doesn�t sound so bad. Generally looks like a good, relatively upfront company. No anti-fraternization rules. (Maybe I�ve just been sucked in by the homey, friendly un-corporate looking website?
CON: �Weekends� might not be consecutive. Less opportunity to select destination? Legendary grammar test (I haven�t studied grammar since high school, and I wasn�t paying attention then, that said, being a university graduate I am highly trained in passing tests on subjects that I know very little about). Can't transfer mid-contract.
I�m still reading, but I�m thinking about ECC as a first choice. NOVA looks like a pretty straightforward option, but also I think it sounds like a bit of a grind, work-wise. I�d like as much free time as possible! GEOS looks pretty decent too, probably better than NOVA, but could also be a grind. If I could get a 29 hour or less working week in a rural area with ECC I think that would be my first choice at this stage, though I suspect that ECC only have offices in Nagoya, Osaka and Tokyo. That said I am still investigating. That�s why I�m posting here. Any suggestions or advice? I�ll update this as I gather more info.
Thanks!! |
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PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
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| Posted: Mon May 08, 2006 9:23 pm Post subject: Re: Picking a conversation school, NOVA, GEOS, ECC, e.t.c. |
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| underblow wrote: |
I�NOVA
PROS: Reliable sounding company. You know where you stand with them. Often cited as a good 'launch pad'. Can change location mid-contract?
CONS: No vacation. Inflexible 40hr week. |
NOVA teachers get ten paid holidays a year by law, but work on national holidays and Christmas. Two days off a week. Can ask for more time off but unpaid.
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GABA
PROS: Very flexible. Maybe a more 'casual' sort of work?
CONS: Bad pay. Bad reputation. Can't sponsor visa? Don't help with your accomodation? |
Stay away from GABA. Good for people who want extra hours on top of a regular job. Slave wages.
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GEOS
PROS: More holidays than NOVA. Slightly better reputation than NOVA in most respects.
CONS: Inflexible 40hr week. Potentially mountains of paperwork (maybe). |
Most full time jobs are 40 hours a week or 8 hours a day. Actual work hours are 40 hours, teaching hours more like 30. Check that ECC's 29 hours are not just teaching hours. I did see a post from someone who worked there and said paperwork wasnt as bad as people make it out to be. Can do progress reports in the last five minutes of class.
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JET
I considered JET for many years, but I have concluded that I do not want to work in schools, as I would rather not be responsible for maintaining discipline in large classes of children. I would rather teach small classes of adults (and the odd child) in private �schools�, and I prefer �for-profit� work places. |
You will not be responsible for discipline as you are a teaching asisstant with a Japanese English teacher. Best happy, holidays but location is a lottery and mostly ion rural locations. Airfare paid for. The children are junior high school age. You will find 'for-profit' schools treat you like a battery hen, and money comes before teaching quality. Eikaiwa teachers are just warm bodies churning out lessons.
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ECC
PRO: Good reputation. Decent holidays. 29 hour week doesn�t sound so bad. Generally looks like a good, relatively upfront company. No anti-fraternization rules. (Maybe I�ve just been sucked in by the homey, friendly un-corporate looking website?
CON: �Weekends� might not be consecutive. Less opportunity to select destination? Legendary grammar test (I haven�t studied grammar since high school, and I wasn�t paying attention then, that said, being a university graduate I am highly trained in passing tests on subjects that I know very little about). Can't transfer mid-contract. |
see http://www.generalunion.org/ecc
Most language schools you may have split days off in the first year.
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| I�m still reading, but I�m thinking about ECC as a first choice. NOVA looks like a pretty straightforward option, but also I think it sounds like a bit of a grind, work-wise. I�d like as much free time as possible! |
They choose you, you dont choose them and you have to pass the interview stage. Most people attend interviews at all four companies and go with who ever hires them. You are just another fresh off the boat newbie and there are no guarantees about who hires you. get some experience first and then shop around for different jobs after coming here. Teaching is WORK. you will find it a grind whereever you go, as they pay you to work and teach lessons. At NOVA etc you will have up to 6 or 7 classes a day, 5 days a week. Actual teaching hours is 27 hours a week plus paperwork, demo lessons, conversation room, etc. |
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Willy_In_Japan
Joined: 20 Jul 2004
Posts: 329
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| Posted: Tue May 09, 2006 4:14 am Post subject: |
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If you like a lot of time off, (usually about 40 days in summertime) you should check out ALT work.
The pay bites, but you can always supplement with part time work, and travel in the summer. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Tue May 09, 2006 11:03 am Post subject: |
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| I�d like as much free time as possible! |
As the old saying goes, be careful what you wish for, you just might get it. By this, I mean that you might want something like the 29-hour work week, but that'll be the loophole the employer needs to list you as a part-time worker to the government and not to help make your health insurance copayments. Big stink on this recently. |
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PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
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| Posted: Tue May 09, 2006 11:57 am Post subject: |
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| Glenski wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I�d like as much free time as possible! |
As the old saying goes, be careful what you wish for, you just might get it. By this, I mean that you might want something like the 29-hour work week, but that'll be the loophole the employer needs to list you as a part-time worker to the government and not to help make your health insurance copayments. Big stink on this recently. |
If you want part time hours you will get part time pay, which means you may not get enough to meet your bills every month and do the things you want to do in a new country, like travel around, go out boozing and socialising with work mates.
Employers dont pay you to sightsee and 'experience the culture' but to put in the hours at work for them. It all depends on your priorities for coming here and whether you can afford to get by on a low salary. 1,500 yen an hour is about 7 pounds an hour in wages or the equivalent of 200 pounds a week for a 30 hour week. Not a princely sum by any stretch. |
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underblow
Joined: 06 May 2006
Posts: 9
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| Posted: Tue May 09, 2006 5:16 pm Post subject: Re: Picking a conversation school, NOVA, GEOS, ECC, e.t.c. |
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GABA
PROS: Very flexible. Maybe a more 'casual' sort of work?
CONS: Bad pay. Bad reputation. Can't sponsor visa? Don't help with your accomodation? |
Stay away from GABA. Good for people who want extra hours on top of a regular job. Slave wages. |
Roger that! I'd like to see some of their famous adverts though!
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GEOS
PROS: More holidays than NOVA. Slightly better reputation than NOVA in most respects.
CONS: Inflexible 40hr week. Potentially mountains of paperwork (maybe). |
Most full time jobs are 40 hours a week or 8 hours a day. Actual work hours are 40 hours, teaching hours more like 30. Check that ECC's 29 hours are not just teaching hours. I did see a post from someone who worked there and said paperwork wasnt as bad as people make it out to be. Can do progress reports in the last five minutes of class. |
So better than NOVA right? They seem to get a better press on these forums and GP.
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JET
I considered JET for many years, but I have concluded that I do not want to work in schools, as I would rather not be responsible for maintaining discipline in large classes of children. I would rather teach small classes of adults (and the odd child) in private �schools�, and I prefer �for-profit� work places. |
You will not be responsible for discipline as you are a teaching asisstant with a Japanese English teacher. Best happy, holidays but location is a lottery and mostly ion rural locations. Airfare paid for. The children are junior high school age. You will find 'for-profit' schools treat you like a battery hen, and money comes before teaching quality. Eikaiwa teachers are just warm bodies churning out lessons. |
Yeah, JET is probably the best deal of the bunch, but to be honest I am really just a warm body with a degree, who is almost certainly capable of churning out lessons. I am not a teacher (I'm not really into children for starters!), and I don't think I am heading in that direction! I understand what you are saying, but I really think an Eikaiwa would be a better fit for me.
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ECC
PRO: Good reputation. Decent holidays. 29 hour week doesn�t sound so bad. Generally looks like a good, relatively upfront company. No anti-fraternization rules. (Maybe I�ve just been sucked in by the homey, friendly un-corporate looking website?
CON: �Weekends� might not be consecutive. Less opportunity to select destination? Legendary grammar test (I haven�t studied grammar since high school, and I wasn�t paying attention then, that said, being a university graduate I am highly trained in passing tests on subjects that I know very little about). Can't transfer mid-contract. |
see http://www.generalunion.org/ecc |
Its a coin toss whether the active involvement of a union is a good or a bad thing, on every level. I see they too have issues with the national insurance program. Are all the schools difficult about this?
The sub-shifts issue looks tricky. I don't know if its a deal breaker. I suppose that if all the eki schools are crappy then its better to be in one with an active union than not?
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| I�m still reading, but I�m thinking about ECC as a first choice. NOVA looks like a pretty straightforward option, but also I think it sounds like a bit of a grind, work-wise. I�d like as much free time as possible! |
They choose you, you dont choose them and you have to pass the interview stage. |
LOL. I'm confident about the interviews, at least to the extent that I can influence the outcome. Beyond that its just spilled milk isn't it?
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| Teaching is WORK. you will find it a grind whereever you go |
Never a truer word said! To be honest I don't have any acceptable non-grind options in the UK. I have been grinding for some time now (actually I have never had a good job, and I am 26) so I am prepared for the grind. I am hoping that it might be more bearable with a decent bowl of miso ramen in my belly! |
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underblow
Joined: 06 May 2006
Posts: 9
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| Posted: Tue May 09, 2006 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Willy_In_Japan wrote: |
If you like a lot of time off, (usually about 40 days in summertime) you should check out ALT work.
The pay bites, but you can always supplement with part time work, and travel in the summer. |
Mainly I like to work 2-3 days a week. If I can get that then holidays aren't so important. Unfortunately that seems to be impossible to achieve without having a horrific job, horrific pay or both! (I have a few friends who manage it, but they are very lucky.)
I am hoping that if I go down that the english tutoring path for a while then I will be able to get some kind of half decent job in a private english school in the UK. I worked in an outbound call centre for a while and if who I was calling constititues some kind of cross-section of the country then 1/3 or so of the UK don't speak english in any comprehensible manner. There are plenty of private english schools in Glasgow where I live, but you either need experience or a qualification to get in. I cannot afford to go back to uni in any way shape or form, and I have been trying to think of some way to live in Japan for a wee while so it just all seems to make some sense.
Anyway, I'm rambling now.
What is the general opinion about the ALT dispatching companies? |
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underblow
Joined: 06 May 2006
Posts: 9
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| Posted: Tue May 09, 2006 5:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Glenski wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I�d like as much free time as possible! |
As the old saying goes, be careful what you wish for, you just might get it. By this, I mean that you might want something like the 29-hour work week, but that'll be the loophole the employer needs to list you as a part-time worker to the government and not to help make your health insurance copayments. Big stink on this recently. |
I have been following it. I thought that NOVA & GEOS had this sorted out at least though? |
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Like a Rolling Stone
Joined: 27 Mar 2006
Posts: 872
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underblow
Joined: 06 May 2006
Posts: 9
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| Posted: Tue May 09, 2006 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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If you want part time hours you will get part time pay, which means you may not get enough to meet your bills every month and do the things you want to do in a new country, like travel around, go out boozing and socialising with work mates.
Employers dont pay you to sightsee and 'experience the culture' but to put in the hours at work for them. It all depends on your priorities for coming here and whether you can afford to get by on a low salary. 1,500 yen an hour is about 7 pounds an hour in wages or the equivalent of 200 pounds a week for a 30 hour week. Not a princely sum by any stretch. |
7 pounds an hour is the most money I have ever made, and that was in the worst job of my life. To be honest after a certain number of working hours I stop feeling like the extra pay is really compensating me for my time. That said I know I am not really in a position to be choosy at the moment. I'd hope that with some english tutoring experience my position might have improved somewhat. Also I love Japan, and though I am sure that will change after working there for a bit, I might as well capitalise on this?
As for whether I can afford to do the things I want, working a 4 day week takes priority for me over being able to "travel around, go out boozing and socialising with work mates [...] sightsee [ing] and 'experience [ing] the culture'. I have experienced the expensiveness of boozing in Japan, but I have definately got out of the habit now. I am more an indoors sort of guy. As for the culture, I note you put it in scare quotes, and very appropriately in my opinion. You can get a lot of culture for free. Or for the price of a plate of cheap curry rice.
When I was in Japan last year I was trying to gauge living costs, but its tricky. Some things are cheaper, some more expensive. In the UK I can live comfortably, and in my mind luxiously, on �600 a month, which is like jpy125,000. At the moment I am getting paid �850 (jpy176,000) a month, and to me that is just silly money!
Obviously I might not be able to attain the same standard of living in Osaka or Nagoya that I can in Glasgow on those sums. But if I could that would be fine by me.
Also obviously, NOVA, GEOS and the other schools that will make my visa & accomodation easier might not even offer any sort of part time work so that might not be an option.
In that case then working in the Eki's (if the quality of living bang-per-buck is roughly comparable) will be such an enourmous hike up in terms of my solvency that its masochistic for me to being doing the same kind of grindy-full time work in the UK for jpy175,000 BEFORE BILLS.
I'm rambling again. Thanks for all the replies guys! I am still some ways away from getting sorted out to go (not to mention getting my gf sorted out) but I still appreciate all your advice.
thanks again |
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underblow
Joined: 06 May 2006
Posts: 9
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| Posted: Tue May 09, 2006 6:04 pm Post subject: |
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Lol I misread the second poll, and I was thinking who the hell are ZIAC? They must be AWESOME! |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Tue May 09, 2006 10:27 pm Post subject: |
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| I thought that NOVA & GEOS had this sorted out at least though? |
Don't know their details. What I heard was that NOVA is still screwing teachers on this issue. Part of their "breaks" is counted as class prep time, but only part of it. Plus, I think classes themselves were shortened. |
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PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
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| Posted: Tue May 09, 2006 11:12 pm Post subject: |
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| underblow wrote: |
What is the general opinion about the ALT dispatching companies? |
Generally not good.
About the same way a prostitute feels about her pimp who pockets half her 'earnings' from doing tricks.
http://nambufwc.org/issues/alt/ |
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PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
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| Posted: Tue May 09, 2006 11:30 pm Post subject: |
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| underblow wrote: |
| [I have been following it. I thought that NOVA & GEOS had this sorted out at least though? |
The union has 'pressured' NOVA to abide by Japanese laws on payment of national health insurance and NOVA responded by cutting teachers salaries by 30,000 yen to make way for the premium payment. This is in itself illegal (you can not 'punish' teachers when making them pay health insurance by lowering salaries) but it has got offside with many non-union employees who disagree with the union tactics.
Damned if you do and damned if you don't. |
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PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
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| Posted: Tue May 09, 2006 11:54 pm Post subject: Re: Picking a conversation school, NOVA, GEOS, ECC, e.t.c. |
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| underblow wrote: |
So better than NOVA right? They seem to get a better press on these forums and GP. |
In the school of popular opinion and Internet hype they are more popular. Whether they are actually much different on the ground is open to debate. Both ECC and NOVA are cut from the same cloth, but ECC offers longer (unpaid) holidays.
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| Yeah, JET is probably the best deal of the bunch, but to be honest I am really just a warm body with a degree, who is almost certainly capable of churning out lessons. I am not a teacher (I'm not really into children for starters!), and I don't think I am heading in that direction! I understand what you are saying, but I really think an Eikaiwa would be a better fit for me. |
Whatever gets you going in the mornings. You will have to do one or the other anyway to get some experience first.
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Its a coin toss whether the active involvement of a union is a good or a bad thing, on every level. I see they too have issues with the national insurance program. Are all the schools difficult about this? |
Im not going to debate the pros and cons of the union on this forum but far too many people cherry pick their battles and what they want to see done. I was here before unions even existed (1991) and there were no 40-hour weeks then, no paid holidays, no unemployment insurance. The union got rid of the anti-fraternisation clause (though it still exists on NOVA's books, its been declared ilegal though), the anti-drug clause. Current employees dont realise what they have now is far better than what teahcers had in the past but still sh-it on the union over things like the insurance. You cant have it both ways, though many teachers make a personal choice not to get involved with the union. To make an omelette you have to break a few eggs IMO.
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| The sub-shifts issue looks tricky. I don't know if its a deal breaker. I suppose that if all the eki schools are crappy then its better to be in one with an active union than not? |
The General Union in Osaka has over 500 members with a chapter for language schools. NOVA has its own chapter for its employees. A registered trade union is the only union that an employer is required to negotiate with. it is not required to negotiate with non-union employees, so they would be heckling from the bleachers in the event of a labor dispute. It is the general union that had got improved working conditions for language teachers, though some may argue with that idea.
You can work for a company and belong to a union and push for change of those things that are in fact illegal. Most simply choose to quit or not get involved in union battles. Its only employees who can do anything about where they work and you have to be prepared to take a stand (an employer can not fire you for belonging to a union or going on a legal strike for example).
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LOL. I'm confident about the interviews, at least to the extent that I can influence the outcome. Beyond that its just spilled milk isn't it? |
teaching Enlish like any job is work, its a grind, a 9-5 job. I have been doing this job for nearly 20 years and I get tired of it. Its a grind for me too. thats why they call it WORK, and you would be doing the same thing at home. Just because the work is in a foreign country it doesnt mean you should just kick back and expect to be entertained. Do you think Mexican laborers and Filipino dancers go for a good time when they work in foreign countries? English teachers are SPOILED here because they believe the world owes them a living because they put on a suit and tie and have a degree.
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| Never a truer word said! To be honest I don't have any acceptable non-grind options in the UK. I have been grinding for some time now (actually I have never had a good job, and I am 26) so I am prepared for the grind. I am hoping that it might be more bearable with a decent bowl of miso ramen in my belly! |
It's your life and im not going to lecture you here, but you can come here, work 5, 10 years doing the same thing at NOVA and it will still be a day-in, day-out slog. You will still be exploited by employers here.
working at a a language school is not a career-track, upwardly mobile professional occupation, but the teaching equivalent of being a shop assistant at Marks and Spencers. Low pay, unglamorous. zilch job status and job security.
Maybe slightly better than what you are doing now but not much. Same job, different location. The only way to advance is to work hard, pay your dues, increase your qualfications and training.
I will also add that NOVA salaries have gone down 25% compared to salaries earnt 15 years ago when you factor in cost of living increases. English teaching is becoming a working class job, dressed up in a suit and tie in an office building. Looks glamorous but so is flipping burgers at McDonalds. Come for the experience, the lifestyle travel, learn the language, experience the culture, but if you are coming for the money i would advise against it. |
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