Job Discussion Forums

[Guy Courchesne]

Wow. 500,000 take to the streets in LA against immigration reform proposals. Not all Mexican of course, but more than a taco stand can accommodate.

Anyone in LA to see this? I have to imagine a sense of inevitablity for the Latino wave that just rose up.

[Cdaniels]

A protest in Boston which was expected to attract a few hundred but actually thousands showed up. There's some conflicting reports of the numbers I've seen 7000 reported by the Cape Cod Times, and "thousands" was reported in the local TV news reports, but the NY times says only several hundred
There were many non-Mexicans marching, in fact I'd be surprised if any Latin American countries weren't represented. There was even a sizeable Irish contingent in the march.
HBO had a docudrama about a 1968 Chicano student walkout called "walkout" which they showed again late Sunday night.
The congress seems so divided about the issue, that I'm not sure if much will get accomplished

[delacosta]

Could anyone ppst a news link to this story?
Thanks.

[Guy Courchesne]

I firmly believe that the solutions are to be found through bilateral or hemisphere-wide labor agreements. It almost seems idiotic to deny that anything can truly be done to completely stop illegal immigration. It's also foolish to completely open the border, so, involving countries like Mexico, Honduras, Panama, etc, etc in setting controls and programs would be the easiest way to ensure everyone is represented and that everyone is legal.

[Samantha]

Delacosta, they were calling it "A Day Without Latinos" . Here is a link to one story. They had support in so many cities it was amazing.


http://apnews.myway.com/article/20060325/D8GIA4982.html

[MELEE]

Stories all over the news in English and Spanish. Some seem conflicting? Are Mexicans protesting the bill or applauding it? It does include a road to citizenship for many illegals currently in the US, and the long awaited "guest worker" visas, but also includes more boarder walls, and makes it a felony to be in the US illegally.

Here's the Houstan Chronicle's story, they had a couple of different stories.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/world/3752767.html

[Guy Courchesne]

I would have thought it was already a felony to be in the US illegally?

There's a lot to wrangle about in the current immigration debate going on in the US gov. Most interesting seems to be that Bush supports some kind of guest worker program but his party doesn't at all. Sort of looks like the GOP would rather not touch this hot potato with house elections coming up this year.

Meanwhile, another 400,000 will go over the Rio Bravo in 2006...

[thelmadatter]

I wasnt gonna say anything here but...

I lived in Arizona 11 years. Ive seen repatriations (basically the BP making folks walk back over the border after driving them there in a van) and read way too many stories of the hundreds who had died in the desert. Ive also see the sheet-metal barriers erected on the border around towns like Nogales and Naco Arizona. All of these make me sad on a purely gut level.

However, I have to admit the demonstrations over the past week worry me and (as politically incorrect this will be to some) anger me. Esp the signs denouncing all European presence in the New World, and the idea that all Mexicans have a right to be in the US because of US conquest of what is now CA,AZ, NM and TX (OK and bits of Colorado) and many American citizens apparent allegiance to Mexico over the U.S.

I am in Mexico legally. I respect Mexico's laws and sovereignty (even when sometimes it means I have to go looking for the migracion office on the border so I can get my FM3 stamped even though I know no one will check or perhaps even care. I am a GUEST in this country and it has the right to kick me out when it please or any or no reason at all. I accept that I have no RIGHT to be here.

Why does my country not have the same right, according to some?

I am also surprised at the numbers and the extremism of the event. I suspect a lot of it has to do with the fact that the amnesty of 86 was a HUGE mistake. It gave people in the US illegally the idea that there was either some kind of entitlement if you can evade authorities long enough and/or with enough intimidation in numbers, you can bully the govt into another amnesty.

I dont understand what you mean by "bilateral or hemisphere-wide labor agreements" Guy. Would Canada be willing to take on millions of Mexican immigrants, even if the majority of those immigrants are poorly-educated and with little to no skills - even worse then they come in evading the law in the first place? I find this hard to believe. I know Canada advertises for immigrants but primarily in Asia, where education rates are quite high. Its easy to take the "high road" when you dont have thousands upon thousands pouring in... You have oceans and the US bbetween you and the many who might come streaming into Canada.

Im not sure what the answer is, but this demonstration is bound to cause an equally extreme backlash. That many consider the border states to be part of Mexico, will invigorate those who advocate for a permanent fence/wall. Maybe this is a "war" that has been a long time in coming.

[delacosta]

NAFTA is supposed to be a hemisphere wide agreement that facilitates trade between the participating countries. Labor, as an input in any economic tansaction should be covered in such an agreement-and if it isn't then it will find its own way into the exchange of goods and services. Actually this will happen with or without NAFTA or any other trade agreement, as evidenced by the massive number of workers crossing over to the other side over the last century. They have done so illegaly but in fact are a vital part of the economy in many parts of the US, if not all. To be asked to be treated fairly, dare one suggest a bit of respect, is not in my opinion going too far.

The reason I brought up NAFTA is that it should deal with this, just as the European Union has integrated free movement of labour into its agreement. But the fact that it isn't in NAFTA just gives credence to the idea that it�s just a tool to open up markets but not give anything in return. There is a definite need for "bilateral or hemisphere-wide labor agreements" as Guy said.

Mexico was invited into NAFTA and joined. Or, from another point of view, a few powerful people/sectors sold out and more literally Mexico 'was bought' into NAFTA. The alternative would be akin to West Germany saying to East Germany we can sell in your markets but you can't work in our factories. Then the East Germans would say but we're hungry and broke and their's no jobs over here-we'll work for real cheap. The German capitalists, being of a reasonable sort, would say hey, ok why not-we�ll make an even better return. Some West German workers would be pissed that they will get paid a bit less but hey, at the end of the day, no one goes to bed hungry.

Now they could say no way we don't want you stinky cabbage eating commies over here, and get all huffy and patriotic and keep things exactly as they were, with lots of East Germans going to bed hungry every day, and the West Germans eating lots of bratwurst and merrily drinking all the good Bavarian beer they wanted. But it would probably be a bit much on their consciences to put on such a face, because all the while they'd be hiring lots of East German workers under the table at even lower wages than they would pay over the table. It would be in their interests to keep them illegal, even if thousands were dieing to come and work for them.

OK maybe the analogy is a bit Friday afternoonish, but you see where I'm going here Thelmadater?

The playing field is currently very uneven and the market-if the market system is seriously being considered as the one that is going to rule-will find a way of correcting that. Right now it is so uneven that Mexicans are willing to leave family and community behind and risk death, deportation, etc to make a few dollars to bring home. In plain English things have to stink pretty friggin bad for a Mexican to consider leaving family behind and go and live in an obviously hostile enviornment.

Yet millions have done so. Mexicans have lived on the other side of the border for generations, legaly and illegaly. Mexican culture is a part of the good ol USA, like it or not-and from what it looks like there's a few good ol' boys in Congress who don't. Those people who are demonstrating are making themselves heard, that's all. You are aware of the thousands who have died, you say, but actaully get angry at people expressing themselves?

[Guy Courchesne]

Nicely put Delacosta.

There are most certainly a lot of pros and cons, a lot of different angles to the problems, and a lot of extremes. You're right Leigh in that one can see it as millions of immigrants, many under- or un-educated not being the most desirable people to move into the neighbourhood. I can also most certainly agree that the US has a right to decide who comes in and who doesn't. Without a doubt.

What I mostly see up north is very little by way of pragmatism. There has to be some sort of understanding first of the causes of the problems, related to NAFTA and economics as delacosta pointed out. Understanding those problems must come in the framework of a dialogue with Mexico and Central America. Has NAFTA created the problem of all these immigrants? If it has, is there something that can be done to correct it through NAFTA? Does the agreement need to be changed? I think the agriculture component is the source of most problems. Mexico's agricultural sector has been hit hard by NAFTA.

The problem is similar to what the US is going through with outsourcing. Jobs lost to China and India as global markets open and intertwine. It just happens to involve people and a long, basically unguarded border over here.

I'm glad you brought up Canada. We don't share a border with Mexico, or with anyone save for the US, so we don't know the same issues. However, we do suffer the same problems as the US, namely, lack of low-skilled labourers. Canada has a guest-worker program with Mexico that brings thousands up to work in agriculture during the growing season. Yesterday, Fox asked our Prime Minister to vastly expand that program and the PM said they would seek to double it.

Some time ago, I came out against the guest-worker program. I saw it as creating a second-class citizen. A class of people good enough to clean toilets, but not good enough for permanent residency. I also noted with distaste, a program whereby immigrants are offered green cards in exchange for two years' service in Iraq. I noticed that program when the KIA lists started coming out, with a lot of names like Martinez, Loez, Garcia, etc.

I've changed my mind some on the guest-worker idea. I think it's a pragmatic soultion that helps both Mexico and the US (and Canada). I would like to see it include incentives and the chance to become a US resident/citizen, and not merely be a 9-5 permit to half-an-American-Dream.

The Mexican nationalist dimension to the problem is interesting, from the point of view of this Canadian. I remember it striking me as odd when I first arrived and people expressed strong opinions to me about previous American 'invasions' of Mexico and the loss of territory this country suffered. I suppose it is still a strong enough issue that it can come out at times of high-emotions like these.

I didn't notice in this latest round, but I wonder if some Mexicans are suspicious of a guest-worker program? The Braceros of the WWII era and their families are still complaining for not having been paid all of their money from the last such program.

[cwc]

If I were here illegally, wouldn�t it be ludicrous of me to demand that the �Seguro� treat me, the govt. educate my kids or give me a driver�s license? Seems pretty simple to me. ILLEGAL aliens. If people make the decision to enter a country illegally, they must suffer the consequences. It is proven, by a poll of Mexicans in NY, that they were NOT STARVING but trying to improve their standard of living by coming to the States. Capitalism is a mean son of a bitch but we are all the better for it�s strength. I did a 2.5 year �walkabout� in the States, after getting out of the military, where I lived a most meager existence. It gave me a great understanding of how the world works. Then I went to college. We all sacrificed and went to school to have what we have. BTW, try going to Australia and run awry of immigration. Jail and then deportation. Not custody, but jail.

[snorklequeen]

today's [3/31/06] Houston Chronicle says that 26 Houston Independent School District students [high school] were arrested for walking out of class to protest pending immigration legislation. there were also 67 middle school [6th-8th grade] students who were giving truancy citations

i believe it's a $200 fine for the high school students [parents] according to the t.v. news Thurs. night

the school leaders are asking that the demonstrations and protests be held outside of school hours and saying that the students' message has been heard

Queenie

[M@tt]

[this entire post is going to be politically incorrect but i don't care. i feel like political correctness was invented by american academics--it's certainly not practiced by mexicans or the vast majority of people outside of the "western world."]

the students' message? puh-lease. a lot of the idiots protesting in california are legal citizens--americans born and raised here who are shouting "viva mexico" and waving the flag of a country they personally would refuse to ever live in. i remember a rockin' walk-out against the gulf war in 91 (or was it 90?). as if any of us had a clue what the hell was going on. it was just the exciting thought of leaving school and feeling like we were a part of something big. they actually surrounded out school with buses so it was nearly impossible to get more than 50 feet away from the front door.
i didn't walk out, by the way, but i remember the excitement over the event.

secondly, that analogy with germany was waaaaaaaaay off.

i'm more or less in agreement with cwc, for once. mexicans' sense of entitlement in the US seems stronger than any other nationality in the world, and i think it's absurd. maybe it's because we're neighbors, or maybe it's because it's easy for them to claim that we owe them certain states (try using that argument on anyone else who has won a war in the last 150 years). it was more than a century ago, for God's sake. and who controlled that land before mexico? i think it was spain... maybe we should return it to the spaniards? but who was there before them?? ad nauseum.

i worked with refugees for two summers at a holding pen outside of vienna. if you want to hear horror stories, talk to people from war zones in africa, or christians from certain majority-muslim countries. from the way mexicans act you would think they were fleeing genocide or the bubonic plague when in fact they are just fleeing less severe circumstances caused by their own people and their own government. i realize the US plays a part in this too, but look around at how badly this country functions. 99% of the problems are internal. there is plenty of money here to go around, and more than enough resources. rather than abandoning their country, why not do something about it? they could start with education, or picking up some trash. h*ll, just refrain from taking a dump on the sidewalk in front of my apartment. but what i would really like to see here is some kind of revolution. people are too complacent, and nothing is ever going to change. maybe a revolution wouldn't change it either, but who knows, it could be a start.

are any americans who post on this board 100% native? i think all of us descended from immigrants, i'm guessing the vast majority of them came from equally bad conditions and did it legally, struggled for a generation, and were happy to pay see their children have a better time than them. why are mexicans incapable of following the same rules? they have in fact received preferential treatment in comparison to the majority of the people showing up in the US--when they break laws our government basically ignores them. any other nationalities represented by 7 million illegal residents? has any other immigrant group been catered to more than latinos? definitely not. i wish the US govt would just make some rules and stick to them. they're to blame for half the problem. let prisoners pick crops. we don't need THAT much cheap labor when we've got several million incarcerated people that can work for free.

i don't know how to feel about people who are stupid enough to walk across a desert and end up dying in the process. i guess i feel bad for their situation, but it was their own choice. nobody forced them to try something that idiotic. it's certainly not grounds for making any policy decisions that affect the 97% of us who live in our respective countries legally.

[M@tt]

what i would really love to see is mexicans' reactions to an invasion of 5 million illegal guatemalans who then stage protests and demand that their rights be respected. i bet that would fly.

everyone knows that latinos from central america are dirty, dangerous, and lazy. at least that's what i've been told by lots of mexican.

ok, i have to stop now. this topic pisss me off.

[Guy Courchesne]

I haven't seen the whole package this immigration bill proposes. Is there anything in it regarding penalties for hiring illegal immigrants?

Matt, I'll point out one good thing that has come about through a biliateral agreement already concerning Guatemalans and Central Americans. Under US pressure - and perhaps with a bit of funding assistance (?) - the Mexican government I hear has strengthened the southern border to try to staunch the flow.