Job Discussion Forums

[hellohowareyou]

(Hi, I'm looking especially for any advice from someone who's been through Chinese legal system or had any similar situation as mine.Any info is good info.)

My fiancee recently had an accident on campus and broke her ankle outside her classroom. Water from poorly placed fountain on greatly designed dusty marble floor.

Our contract says the school pays 100% for sickness during employment, it also says that any accidents which take place outside the campus are not the responsiblity of the school. Our's took place on the campus, because of the campus.

So far they've paid medical costs for her stay in hospital and operation. But after leaving China she will require two later operations. We want the college to pay for these. We also want it to pay for the collection of small costs accrued dealing with the accident (emergency phone bills to her country, wheelchair, transport costs for me to hospital, etc). As a result of the suffering and frustration she's had and the fact that our lined up next job in China is now probably not going to happen (it starts in September and she has to have next operation in September followed by recuperation period) we also want compensation.

We've told the college but we don't have any faith in them at all, and fully expect to have to go down the legal avenue.

Can anyone give me advice on lawyers in China? I'm currently building up a list of contacts who can help us take them to court if necessary.

[Babala]

Not too be negative but I highly doubt you will get anything and you will end up spending more money on all your legal costs.

[China.Pete]

I'm afraid your post has left me with more questions than answers. Can I assume your fiance was also covered by a contract at your school? I'm no expert on the Chinese legal system, but I'm inclined to doubt that Chinese courts see liability quite the same way as they do in the west - or that you could be sure of collecting from your employer even if they did.

Most employer-provided medical coverage is specifically limited to care available in China, often at a designated hospital. That means you are limited to the quality of care available locally. Not only that, but schools have been known to basically walk away from employees who suffer major illness. Consider yourselves lucky your school has paid thus far (and that the accident didn't occur off-campus). That's why really prudent FTs take out international insurance policies and/or are prepared to fly to Thailand for treatment.

I wish that all of the FTs in China, or those considering working under the terms and conditions on offer here, would think long and hard about how viable an option it is in the event that you suffer serious sickness or injury. Will your employer feel sorry enough for you to pay to make you better? (From their point of view, you have become a dead loss.) Will you be able to count on the indigent care network in your home country? Are you in a position to self-insure; that is, pay for your own care?

[hellohowareyou]

Yep she was on the same contract as me....

In my or her country someone could sue for a lot of money for this. We're aware that the legal system won't be as it is in the West.

At the back of my mind is - I'm transposing Western legal concepts on to a Chinese situation....

We became encouraged because we know that the school consulted it's lawyer about whether to pay us full medical costs for her stay in hospital. And we know that the lawyer told them to pay. But I guess strictly speaking that may have been fear of breaking the sickness clause in the contract rather than fear over liability.

[HunanForeignGuy]

[Roger]

I am sorry to read of your fiancee's plight and the financial hemmorhage but as others have already said, you stand to gain nothing from legal recourse, nothing at all, and that would also come at great expense!

I would venture to say your employer has in fact discharged their responsibility quite satisfactorily - you might have had to pick up a much fatter tab! I am not saying you are wrong, or your expectations are unreasonable - they simply have no chance of being entertained, or entertained and treated with fairness!

A lawyer would cost you tens of thousands of yuan (one hour goes for 1500 in some provinces), and courts are undermanned and overworked - your case might even be rejected!

And that's not even speaking of how they would arrive at their verdict...

[hellohowareyou]

Well we gave them a letter this week which threatened 1) legal action 2) embassy communication 3) making public to the media / internet the way they have treated us and some of the other foreign teachers (coupled with now there is a big scandal where their students are rioting because they will be giving inadequate degrees).

We've yet to here their reply, but it looks like the legal action threat is going to have been nothing but an empty one. Any other ideas on how I can force them to give us what we want?

[jeffinflorida]

The posters are correct. I fear you will gain nothing from an attempt at legal action in this country. At Home, in Florida, you stand to gain some good coin, but here, your chances are very small of anything except wasting your own money.

You may consider contacting a Beijing based firm that does global work and has offices in the USA or other Western country and see if they can offer you the higher level of service you are looking for.

My advice: try to work it out with the school directly and quickly.

[tofuman]

OP,

What you are describing here is a nightmare for you and your employer. So far your school has done well by you. I can also understand how they would be hesitant to be responsible for overseas medical treatment. Those costs are going to be astronomical from their point of view. They are not in this business to lose money, which they will almost certainly do.

You are making a mistake making an uproar over this, simply making yourselves and other FTs who follow an odious commodity.

Is it possible for her to recuperate and have the follow up work done here, while you continue to teach?

A lawyer friend said this to me when I mentioned getting involved in a lawsuit against a school, "As a foreigner, it might be inconvenient for you."

Good advice. Good luck

[Roger]

[brsmith15]

Sadly, give it up and gently walk away.

[clark.w.griswald]

I may be alone in this but I find your attitude distasteful and no doubt once you realize that you aren't going to get the pot of gold that you are obviously seeking then you will move on and leave the next foreign teachers in that school with a very wary administration. Not to mention the poor students there who are likely being neglected as the administration concentrates on dealing with this situation.

I am not trying to be cold hearted. What happened was unfortunate and it seems to me that the school has done the reasonable thing by helping you out and paying the bills so far. I don't subscribe to the theory that there must always be someone financially responsible for the accidents that we all have in life.

[prof]

Ignore clark's moralizing. Ignore his comments about your "attitude" and looking for a "pot of gold."

If you think you have a case simpy go see a reputable lawyer.

The key is to find a good lawyer.

You can win. I have.

[Sinobear]

Oddly enough, I agree with Clark (except the distasteful attitude part - I would use 'naive').

Look at accidents in China - there's usually a one-time payoff and that's the end of it (as long as the accident wasn't the end of someone's life).

And, prof, if someone was reputable - they certainly wouldn't be a lawyer! (just a wee joke).

I think you should project future costs for medical treatment and gently try to negotiate an amiable settlement - although I think that you've tainted the chance of that with threats.

A personal example - I almost wipe out each frickin' time it rains on the marble tile outside my building. Here's the catch - my boots are oil resistant soled - therefore more prone to lose traction on slippery surfaces. Is it my building's fault that it rains? That they have marble tiles leading into the building? Or is it my fault for wearing the type of footwear that I prefer? Or is it some sinister Chinese conspiracy to force a laowai to breakdance for the amusement of the security guards who always place the "Slippery Surface when Wet" signs behind the potted plant to keep the sign dry?

Anyhoo, bad break. Good luck!

[hellohowareyou]

bad break - literally

regards some of the negative replies : the terrible safety-unconscious design of the building, the lack of any safety proceedure and the fact that she injured herself doing her job going to class - these are the reasons why we're angry and can't just accept 'accidents do happen'. the injury happened inside not on rainwater but on what was practically a lake of spilt water from a ridiculously positioned fountain (next to marble floor behind one corner of a quadrangle).

we're not gold-digging. she is not a native speaker and comes from a country where her chinese earnings are worth a lot of money. this happening to her makes a big financial difference - the earnings she will lose from not being able to work over the summer and probably not being able to do the next job we had lined up, and having to at a later point accept an inferior job. also the future operations will decimate her savings from this job unless the college pays.

clark - i find your attitude distatesful. we're not trying to get rich, we're trying to get them to accept responsiblity. i might be being very western about this, but that's what i am. you don't know the first thing about the administration at our school - part of our anger with the school is a whole catalogue of incidents that have happened during the year with foreign teachers and the administration where the entire teaching staff has felt unsupported, uniformed and unimpressed. i'm talking about the response to teacher rape, not helping much with knife attacks on teachers on 3 separate occasions even though the perpertrators were known, refusal of medical treatment to a very sick teacher, alledging somebody is an american spy, and this is all before we get to the catalogue of student mistreatment by the administration.

yes the students suffer, we arguing with the school is inconsequential to that as the college is already taking their money and making large profits.
the comment about the media was in relation to the abominable catalogue of things that have happened here to students and teachers. with regard to myself, i only mentionned that concerning if they did not fulfil my contract, which states medical costs should be paid.

we'd love to move on, and we will when the disruption, operations, pain, career alterations and costs are over : which will probably be about christmas time.

i agree in my experience threats don't work well with most people for negotiating. unfortunately the college we work at has a semi-big brother bullying relationship with a lot of it's staff and students and we've felt that the only way to beat a bully is to bully back.

yes we are naive. we don't know a lot about how things work out here, we're figuring it all out as it goes along. it's not nice. at the same time right now our college has mass student protests over a wrong degrees scandal and even a riot last week. this is a bit more from china than we were expecting when we came here. that's life i guess.

the general advice people have given has been very helpful though, thank you, i understand fully negotiating is the only viable route, i just don't know how much we can negotiate in the climate of the college having to negotiate with almost all of its students because of the wrong degree scandal.