Job Discussion Forums

[saltwater_dread]

Hi,

I'm a Canadian looking for work in China. I don't have a bachelor's degree or a TEFL certificate. Because of this, I'm sort of assuming that I have a greater chance of ending up in a dodgy school. Can anyone recommend a trustworthy language school that hires foreign teachers without a bachelor's degree? I'm open to other locations, but I'm looking at Nanjing, Wuxi, Jilin, and Suzhou.

[cubit]

Try Sino-American Denver Foreign Language School, Changchun. Pay is average for the area, good people with whom to work.

Bai Da Wei in Changchun is also good, low hours, lots of free time.

Don't know how far you will get with the lack of TEFL, though. It will depend on how badly they need teachers.

[saint57]

How do we know you're not a dodgy teacher? How do we know we won't be unleashing some psycho on an innocent Chinese language school?

[Super Mario]

Because he's Canadian, Saint. I've never known a psycho Canuck.
But seriously, a totally unqualified teacher is going to be working with the bottom feeders of the ESL ocean. They're employing people no-one else wants, no matter how much integrity you have.
Why not bust the bank and at least get a TEFL of some kind? I don't think you're in much of a position to find a "safe" school. Even the qualified and experienced here get done over regularly.

[saltwater_dread]

Thanks for the advice!

[frank d]

Saltwater-dread:

I'm not sure what other forum posters will say or advise you to do, but my feeling is that it will be difficult to identify such schools outright. This comment is not meant personally in any way, and I hope not to offend you, but it depends on their level of desperation.

What I mean by that is they will first try to hire a teacher with a degree(s), with teaching experience (in home country or China), with various certificates, etc., and if they come up empty-handed they will open the door to those without these credentials.

Just know that your lack of degree also opens the door for much tougher negotiation. They will offer you the smallest salary possible (and remember even the "high" salaries are not high). They will likely tell you they are concerned about your lack of experience, etc., in order to make it look like they are doing YOU a favor by hiring you. Be very careful, because the lack of a degree greatly diminishes your leverage and options and increases your vulnerability.

Scour the job postings on this and other ESL websites (again with great skepticism) and you will probably find schools who will consider you. We are in a period of hiring mania, which will subside in late August. The closer it gets to September 1, and the school finds itself without a foreign teacher (or foreign face), the greater your chances are of a placement.
You could get lucky, but you could likely get handed a 6-12 month nightmare. Ask LOTS of questions of anyone willing to hire you. The vague elements in the contract (and there are plenty of them) are the ones that will blow up in your face later. There's lots of landmines about.

They will likely try to make you pay for all the costs associated with your visa, offer less travel reimbursements, etc. I'm not sure of all the ways they might possibly try to exploit your situation.
Keep in mind that they're under pressure to hire someone, but they won't let you see that.

Also, I have a couple of masters degrees, years of teaching experience prior to coming to China; three year�s teaching experience in China, and none of those things save me from encountering a few �dodgy� schools along the way�

What do others have to say??? Agree or disagree with my projections?

-----------------------------------------
Here�s one for ya�

From the ESL Jobs in China (ESL Teachers Board.com) postings (to read the complete posting, visit the jobs page):

Top Gov Shools, BA is NOT must. - English job offered *Link*

Posted By: Star Education <[email protected]>
Date: 14 July 2006

Star Education in the province of Jilin north of China with Changchun as its capital are offering English language educators to share and impart their skills to eager students. Positions on offer are to teach English to students aged between 5 and 16 who are learning English full-time in their branches in government schools throughout Jilin or to part-time students in their private language schools in Changchun. The commitment expected from you is 5 to 6 days a week, no more than 85 teaching hours per month. Curriculum and teaching material will be provided.

Depending on your qualification, you could be earning between 4000 to 5000 RMB per month with overtime compensation. Work visa will be sponsored before you depart for China and accident and health cover will be offered to you. Modern western accommodation facilities will be supplied. Airfare to the amount of 7000 RMB will be reimbursed immediately upon completion of your one-year contract. You DO NOT need to have a tertiary qualified degree or a TESOL certificate to secure these positions. We want Native English Speakers who has enthusiasm in teaching English to Chinese learners.
----------------------------------------
Keep in mind, I just pointed you in their direction� I am NOT RESPONSIBLE for the outcome!

Good luck to you!

[saint57]

I agree with Frank D.

I'd like to add that in some cases "dodgy schools" can be a matter of perception.

[saint57]

After teaching in South Korea I have lost a lot of respect for my fellow Canadians. It's like a freak show over there. Psychos are a dime a dozen. So far we haven't dominated China in the same way.

[The Voice Of Reason]

...

[cubit]

[frank d]

Yes, yes, yes, Cubit, please do not misunderstand me... I agree with you!

One of the most frustrating aspects of salary/contract negotiations for me in China (for me, Nanjing) is that often schools and headmasters and managers will say things to me like (after reading my letters of recommendation from schools and former students in China): "We hope you will join us because you are a good, and dedicated, and experienced teacher. It seems the students love you, etc..." But when we discuss salary, they usually offer me the exact same (or very close to) amount as they do the inexperienced teacher with less or no credentials. It makes me crazy!

One reason I believe FT salaries are plummeting in Nanjing is because inexperienced teachers accept lower and lower salaries, and then they expect us older, experienced ones (and I'm much older!) to accept the same. My ratings are the highest they have ever been here, but on average I am offered 2000RMB less per month than the first day I arrived in Nanjing in 2003.

I was simply painting a possible scenario for the OP... I do, however, believe ALL teachers (experienced or not) should not have to bear the costs of Z visas, expert certaificates, residence permits, required medical exams, etc. On the rare occasions when school try to push those expenses back on me, I tell them that these things are the PRC government's requirement for me to work here leaglly, not my personal requirement; and if they do not wish to bear the costs of these processes and documents then I simply cannot work for them.

Thanks for adding your thoughts to this thread...

Best, fd

[cubit]

frank_d,

I understood the gist of your post and wasn't trying to disregard what you had said. I agree with pretty much everything you have said; I just wanted to make the point for other people (newbies) that just because a school might offer an unqualified teacher less than what the advert for a qualified, experienced teacher stated doesn't mean that it is a bad or dishonest school.

I absolutely agree that new teachers accepting crap wages are pushing down the payscale and that experienced teachers are having a harder time finding quality pay because of it, expecially here in the poorer (compared to Guangdong) Northeast where the business competition is not as stiff as in the bigger cities. At my previous position I could have been making twice what I am now, but I wanted to come to the Northeast and I wanted to work for a small company with Chinese owners so that I could get real experience working closely with non-Westernized Chinese and see what I could do with a small school. During the negotiation phase, before I accepted the position, I fought as hard as I could to get decent pay but was only able to secure 1000 RMB per month more than what was offered to someone new with no TEFL or degree due to the fact that, no matter how badly they wanted me, I was being undercut by high school kids who would accept anything they could get.

My intention is not to come across harshly on those with little experience or qualifications; if you can get a job, great. My beef is the same as frank_d's, that employers are more interested in the body (with all the proper highlights and features) than the mind behind it. One of the things that I pushed for this year, and accomplished, was convincing the employers that we needed to have a graded scale of pay to attract teachers with some experience. Experienced teachers are making as much or more than I am now, and I am their boss.

I think that part of the problem comes from the fact that many of these schools have never had an experienced teacher; they jump from newbie to newbie because the teachers either return home of realize they can make a lot more money in the richer parts of the country. I am the only teacher they've ever hired with more than a few months of teaching experience.

But there is a sunny side (at least for me). I know that I would have a difficult time going online and finding a new school to work for and securing myself a decent wage, but by proving myself at the job while I have been here for one year and helping to turn a company with two FTs into a company with eight FTs and more business than we can handle, my employers are very keen to keep me. Because I have shown them what a dedicated, experienced teacher/DOS can do for them, they have offered me a substantial share of the tuition (not profits, tuition!). If I were to re-sign with them I would see an instantaneous 300% raise and 50% of the tuition for our private ESL classes for each new student hereafter.

I have chosen not to accept (for personal reasons that have nothing to do with the school) and intead return to my previous employer who is offering a very nice deal, as well. There is money to be made in China by teachers, but they won't find it in job advertisements on the internet. They will find it by proving what they have to offer, taking the time to get to know people and build relationships, and learning how the culture works. Speaking the language also helps.

[no_exit]

There has got to be some reason why a school would hire a totally unqualified teacher. Probably the school will be dodgy or the place will be a total hole (if you'd like to teach in a total hole out in Heilongjiang, I know a school that is desperate. I cannot, for the life of me, find anyone willing to move to this city. A google search on this place is very revealing, and I can see why they're desperate for teachers, even though the school itself isn't really dodgy).

You're also coming around at a time when most good schools have locked down their teachers for the fall, with a few exceptions of course, because there always are. You will probably get some job offers, but they will be bottom of the barrell type stuff. Not to mention the legality of it. Although there are always ways around the rules, you are supposed to have a degree or a certificate to get a work visa in China.

Why take the year off of university and come teach in China? Does your university not offer study abroad? I came to China first as a student and loved it. You should check with your university before deciding to work here. Another option would be to sign up for Chinese lessons at local school and pick up part time work. What is it exactly that draws you to China, and are you really that keen to teach English?

[OGFT]

The schools mentioned in Changchu are both rep. schools that have in the past hired teacher without degrees and hve turnout to be da mn fine teachers.and a few are from Canada.....

To my mind..the addition of a BA will do little to insure the school has a fine teacher....and a good school has it's own training...many would ike to start with a blank canvas and pay accoridnign to ed levels so as to insure themselves steady workers who have few options else where...

[diana83709]

Without university degree, TEFL certification, or experience, you might consider visiting a bookstore and purchase TEFL materials. Michael Swan has written some excellent books on the subject.

Know your grammar!! (again, Michael Swan) This will be of the essence in making corrections to class text books. It is amazing at how many errors my husband and I have found in ours! We are here to teach English and NOT Chinglish!

Teaching English as a Second or Foreign Language, Third Edition, Marianne Celce-Murcia, Editor, Publisher: Heinle & Heinle (Division of Thompson Learning) 2001 Is an excellent reference book. It will help with the styles of learning, teaching ideas and lesson planning. Most school require you submit all lesson plans at the end of the term. We purchased ours at Barnes & Noble. Don't know if they are in Canada.

It is advisable to take a TEFL course. Most European TEFL jobs require either a undergrad degree, or degree and TEFL certification. Most of Europe is like Canada and the USA - you must have a degree to teach in state schools. As others have stated, in China that is NOT always the case.

TEFL is a most rewarding job and cultural experience. Best of luck to you.