Job Discussion Forums

[M109A3]

Hello Everyone!

I am new to this site and I have taken some time to get somewhat up-to-speed on FTs, EFL and such. Since I am a Mod on other websites and have a minor in Journalism along with an MA in Education plus three years (will be four by spring) in English Comp. and Lit. I thought I would pose a few questions of my own unique to my situation (or so I believe).

First:

My wife (whom has three BS degrees) and I wish to find a suitable and responsible university position where my son (5) can go to a good Chinese school with a solid Chinese/English curriculum. Where can we find such institutions? I have found a few by searching on this and a few other sites. However, there is precious little about local schools for kids.

Second:

We are looking for a long-term teaching commitment (more than one year). What are the customs/expectations from a reputable university to attain such a position? I understand the need for an evaluation period (you never buy a car without a test-drive evaluation), but how do teachers find a stable/rewarding position that laasts more than one year?

Third:

Once a reputable university responds to my inquery, how is that response different than all the garbage that has been swamping my e-mail? Do I ask for them to package their response differently? Do the sheisters have ways of figuring out my "filter"?

Finally:

Since my family will be moving to China and we will be looking to live there for a real long time, what practical advice/links/resources do I need to investigate and apply to our situation to insure as trouble-free and rewarding an experience as humanly possible?

I am starting this investigation now for properly preparing for the fall semester of 2007 due to other obligations here in the States that need to be satisfied first.

I really enjoy teaching. I'm seeking a structured environment that has organization, structure and clear goals/objectives. I thrill at seeing someone unlock the power of learning and understanding, especially within an area I am comfortable and effective with teaching. However, I have a great distain for being forced to "teach-to-the-test" no thanks to the "Every-Child-Left-Behind" failed policies of Bush. In addition, the "free-thinking/free-fall/no-structure" hogwash in Texas I'm forced to deal with is stressful to say the least.

I'm not looking to become rich, just content in doing what I love to do (teaching and learning).

Thanks to all for reading my questions, allowing me to vent a little and possibly help my family in aquiring the needed knowlege to find a rewarding career teaching in China (or other suggested eastern country where age, education and experience are rewards not expendable encumberances).

The Van (the M109A3 shop van owner that is)

[Songbird]

Okay, a few q's (welcome to the board!)

-Is your wife planning on also taking a job here (any, not just teaching)? Because the money you will make certainly will NOT help you support a family here, especially send your child to a good school.

- I couldn't figure out from your message- are you actually a qualified teacher in the States? If so, you'll be much better off teaching in an international school, with better pay etc. These are mainly only found in the big cities, like Beijing & Shanghai. Do you want to work in the mega cities? Remember they can be difficult to get around, the air pollution is horrendous, and again, it's more expensive to live there (because everyone wants to work there!).

- You might be too late to get a position now, schools begin in a couple of weeks. You may be better to wait for next year- that way you can really do research and discuss this MASSIVE move with your wife! Don't forget the pschyological effects it will also have on your son! It may affect him most more than anyone else! Work out all the logistics of moving everything to China. Get your affairs in order- things aren't easy if something happens to your or your family, and those back home. Spend the time really researching schools to see where you'll likely to be most comfortable with. Save lots of money for the big move! Moving to somewhere like China shouldn't be a rush decision, whether on your own or as a couple/ family. It can be a difficult place to live, things take much longer to do and you get exhausted easily! Having said that, it's a great place to live, a real adventure and you'll get to learn the knack of things.

Good luck with the decisions!

[Super Mario]

The position with your child's schooling could be difficult, and I have personal experience.
-Chinese kids generally don't start school until 7 years.
- Until that age, you're looking at a Chinese kindergarten/preschool [very little English spoken there], or an international type-setup, which will cost conservatiely $1000 a month US: almost certainly more than you'd earn.
To get entry to a local Chinese kindy, you'd need assistance. My wife, as a Chinese national found it tough and needed to call in guanxi.

Good luck.

[M109A3]

Songbird and Super Mario,

Thank you very much for the replies.

Allow me to clarify a few points here I may have inadvertently overlooked.

First, I have a valid teaching license and a Masters degree. So I'm looking for a university position.

Secondly, my wife is also wanting to teach at the university level as well. She has 15 years of accounting experience, 5 in IT banking and three degrees (IT, Accounting and Communications).

Third, we are planning to take the next nine to ten months to continue careful research before finally committing to our plan.

Believe me, this is not a knee-jerk reaction to anything. We are weighing carefully our options and looking to make the best decision for all involved. We have a couple of friends from high school (class of 1984) already over there and two of my cousins live there as well.

Since employers here state-side refuse to pay us more than subsistance level wages for our experience and look at our ages as a detriment, we are looking for a paradigm shift to benefit us. We have no problem expatriating ourselves. We plan on looking at all our options and choosing the one that best fits our needs and aspirations. Already I have had four (seemingly legit) universities send e-mails with copies of agreements spelling out they are happy to pay 5500 to 6500RMB a month with a 14 hour class load and two hours of office time a week. They also stipulate they provide a free on-campus apartment for my family and free on-campus meals along with free utilities, free medical and so-on. Near as I can figure that's about $700/month to save from my paycheck alone. That's $700 more a month in savings than what we are able to save here in Houston with all the Katrina refugees taking $20/hour jobs for $7/hour. Do these university jobs seem in line with a standard teaching job from a reputable university or do I need to look at them closer?

When we came here last year to Houston there were good jobs that paid well. However, since the hurricanes hit it's an employer market now with the exception of teaching jobs mostly in the slums. My wife doesn't want me to teach in those schools because I'd be a target for the black students (a major clash of skin tones). Moving here from Amish country (Indiana), where there are no jobs except Amish farming jobs that stay in Amish families, has been quite a culture shock for my family. The incredible disrespect Texas has for its teachers (from all levels of society) is beyond belief. I miss Indiana very much. However, no job growth means we're not returning no matter how well connected I am.

My wife and I have talked about this possibility for over a month now and we agreed to use this school year as our research year before making the real commitment. We have had to liquidate almost everything we own just to stay on top of the bills. Don't get me wrong. We don't have any new cars or eat out every night or go on shopping sprees. The last time we saved a penny was in 1999. We are looking at the opportuities overseas teaching offers. Granted the pay might not be on the level of an American paycheck. However, if the cost of living is not either, and we can actually put some money in the bank for retirement and emergencies, we will be doing much better there than here.

I used to live in Cali, Colombia (my ex's hometown) and my son has been there several times. I'm not interested in teaching there due to security issues. However, I know he has had some experiences in living there too. Near as everyone can tell he loved it.

I actually miss living in a part of the world where everyone wants to know who you are (although you need to be careful about who it is). I miss the old broken down Chevy school buses surplused way south clanking and grinding along city streets. I really enjoyed helping the drivers fix the old 7.3L V8s (I used to be ASE certified). They were wonderful to talk to and helped hone my Spanish (street style) vocabulary. However, the extremely volitile politics of Colombia and the Central/ South American area in general makes my interest in teaching there sour.

SM (I tend to abriviate),

Is it plausible for a situation where my son is with me at one time of the day when my wife is teaching and another when I am teaching and he is with her? Just a thought. I guess it would depend upon the university and the particular situation presented to us. BTW, what is a guanxi?

Again, thanks for the responses. I'm sorry for being so long winded. I do it in the hopes of more effective help in our quest.

The Van

[no_exit]

Don't look for an escape from the "teaching to the test" system in China. It will be worse than in the States, that's a guarantee. Tests rule the system here. Basically grade school and high school exist in preparation for a series of tests that will ultimately determine a child's future in a MUCH more concrete way than they do in the States. Ask any Chinese student what one of their major gripes about school is, and they'll tell you "exams." There are exams to get into primary school, middle school, and high school, and if you flunk the college entrance examination you're basically screwed out of a decent higher education. Omce you're in university, then you get in major exams that determine whether or not you graduate, English exams that everyone has to take no matter what the major, and exams to get into graduate school. We're not talking SATs and GREs here, but exams with a set point where you either get into school, or don't. No essays to show your creativity, extracurricular activities to beef up your application -- it is all exam based (unless, of course, your family has money, and then you can pay you way into college!)

Putting your kid in a local school would be ok when he's little. Super Mario talks about needing "guanxi" to get into a kindergarten. Guanxi means "connections," meaning basically you have to know someone at the school you want to get your kid into or someone who knows someone, etc. It all really depends on what school you want your kid to go to, because some schools are much easier to get into than others. Some schools, the really elite public schools, will require connections as well as cash in order to get your kid in. If you're happy with an ok school that seems like a pleasant place but might not necesarrily be the feeder kindergarten for the top primary schools in the city, then it shouldn't be too hard.

I'd be careful about moving your son in and out of the Chinese system though. Actually, after kindergarten, I'd be pretty wary of putting my kid into local primary school at all. It isn't that the schools are bad places, but they start the testing thing from an early age, kids have a ton of homework, creativity isn't exactly encouraged, and teachers are fairly authoritarian. On top of that, if your kid looks Western, he'll always be the foreign kid, and it might be hard, especially at first, sticking out so much. It will also be hard for your kid if he starts off in the Western educational system and has to switch to Chinese, and vice versa. Your best bet would be an international school, or a private experimental school. China has more options for education than it used to, and if you can afford an alternative, then I wouldn't really recommend Chinese public school.

[M109A3]

Thanks for the advice No Exit! That's VERY helpful. How can I find out if these international schools are nearby the university I would be teaching at? I'm finding internet searches a bit daunting. Locations are tough to pin down at this point in my search. Any ideas?

[Songbird]

Sorry to be pessimistic, but I am still not convinced that you could really make it as a family. Sure you could survive on the salary, but forget your plans of putting money away, or even having a nice holiday travelling around China with the family. Let's take a hypothetical situation:

Let's say you earn 5500 per month. Your wife also works the same hours and gets the same pay. That's 11,000RMB per month (you will each also expect to receive at least 8000 for airfare each year- make sure you get this or at least a cash equivalent!) and also 1100RMB per semester travel allowance. Also assume you get your apartment provided at no charge.

Only living simply, I myself live on about 150RMB per week. For you it could be about, ooohhh, say 400 per week (1600 per month)

Your child in an international school- Mario said it would cost about US$1000/ month- that's about 8000 RMB per month. What about books, uniforms, excursions etc? Have no idea what these would cost. Trying to hae someone at home (you or your wife) at all times with your child is probably almost impossible- you will both most likely be out working at the same time.

Already that's 9600 RMB per month! If you lived and scraped on the rest of it, and put the airfare aside for retirement, you would only save about US$1000 per year, if you're lucky!

If you really want to do this, I would try and push for a higher salary, this shouldn't be too hard, given your experience and even your wife's several degrees. Again, if I were you I would seriously consider taking a position in an international school. Or have your considered the Middle East? Qatar? Saudi? They offer amazing salaries, AND are very family friendly countries- some places even offer educational allowances for any children AND usually offer airfared for ALL family members .

Good luck with your decision!

[cj750]

Best bet is to take the teaching licence and work at an international school which can pay from around 10000RMB to around 30000RMB...
Often these schools have kindergartens and primary grades and will let one relative child per teacher attend at a discount or free.
Also these schools are usually located near major cities which make getting supplies for the baby a more western-like/ import necessities experience...

[Super Mario]

Hey, even I know 5 year olds aren't babies. But the above figures are close to the mark. And even Chinese kindergartens are run like primary classes. Rows of desks, regimentation, marching, no imaginative or play learning.
My son started at 3, and in 2.5 years learned to speak pretty good Chinese, but didn't enjoy the overall experience. In contrast, he loves school back home; we can't keep him away.

[no_exit]

[HunanForeignGuy]

This is what comes to my mind, just as an example.

Why not teach in a private primary school / middle school / high school where they would enroll your children with no problem?

I know of one very, very good school where a qualified teacher teaching in the International Baccalaureat program can make between 12,000 - 15,000 per month. It's an extremely reputable school and has been around awhile. It is mainly for Chinese nationals but there is an international section. Teachers with families are given much larger apartments than the others. They have all kinds of benefits and contrary to what the other write, with RMB 12,000 per month, and all expenses paid (apartment, water, gas, tuition for your children), you can surely survive and even much more than that.

PM if you wish and I will discuss the details of this with you.

[M109A3]

Allow me to thank everybody for taking the time not only to read but to also respond! WOW!

Ok, I've heard some "war stories" about international schools. My concern is being had by some back-street recruiter and putting my family in jeapordy (completely unacceptable!). What reputable international schools are out there? How do I securely (avoiding the rats) get in touch with them? I find people who are antsy about getting me to China at light-speed a bit more than suspicious.

I am also very concerned about the level in which I teach as well. I connect much better with young adults than the middle school or younger crowd. My sense of humor is a bit dry for the younger kids (much like the Sahara).

I guess you see why I'm taking nine to ten months to make a decision. Plus if we were to look at the Saudis or Qatar my wife has a real problem with anyone telling her to wear something she does not want to. Plus, she can have a bit of a temper too. I'm fortunate to have known her since the fifth grade. So I can get away with bloody murder where others would be walking into a mine-field. Granted we come from conservative New England roots and don't believe in dressing in blatant ways. However, I see MAJOR problems if someone tries to force her to wear a veil. Would this be an issue? It is a major concern in addition to obvious safety/terrorist concerns of that area.

HFG, I PMed you BTW.

[no_exit]

I've heard some great things about Oman in the middle east, which I think is less conservative than some other places. Turkey might be a good place to look at as well. It is also likely that the middle east will provide the kind of academic environment that you seem to be looking for.

As for sketchy international schools, I think you run a much greater risk of being had by a uni than by a real accredited international school. At an international school you could always teach high school junior/seniors. If you're teaching Chinese university students they're going to be at about the same maturity level as Western 15 year olds. I know this is coming off as fairly condescending towards the Chinese. It isn't meant to be. The Chinese university system, with the exception of a few elite universities (countable on one hand -- Beida, Qinghua, Fudan ...), is pretty abysmal overall. But I bet you anything that Western high school students would stand a better chance of appreciating your dry sense of humor than Chinese college students.

Anyhow, research both options. However, as I'm sure you know, your child's education needs to come first. Working at an International school will provide you with the means to send your kid to a good school here in China free of charge, whereas university work will mean barely scraping by. If you and your wife were both making 12,000RMB a month, like at the school HFG mentions, and tuition were covered, you could live very comfortably, save a lot, and take nice trips on your holidays. Sounds like a great deal to me.

[danswayne]

I will be teaching in an international school next year unless we make enough money this year to allow me to quit teaching altogether and pursue other interests. Give me an e-mail address in a PM or better yet a IM handle and I will try to tell you everything I know.

[M109A3]

Ok, from what I have gleaned so far to be a university professor is just a part-time gig in China. Plus to put my son in a quality expat school will cost a vital body organ every year. To put him in a regular Chinese school where rote is continually drill-pressed at about 10K p.s.i. does not look encouraging to say the least. Looking at the Middle East has been a read in a how to barricade yourself from the local population (not why I want to be an overseas teacher).

I also have learned the college students in China I might teach are not as serious as I was lead to believe. In addition I have found out there are no test scores nor any significant way to evaluate their progress. It seems like I'd be trading in the sub-standard teaching expectations here in Texas for similar ones in China. Is this an accurate assessment?

I'm still in the data collection phase of this investigation. I would like to teach serious students on the collegiate level full-time, earn a decent living for my family and provide for my son's future. Is this realistic in China? If so, then where? If not the where else? I'll start digging into Turkey as well.

I like the international schools for the high standards. However, the students are a younger set (for the most part) than my intelect allows me to solidly connect with. High school age students are as young as I like to teach. However, I'm finding these positions are few and far between.

Anyone have further advice? Other countries I should look at? What am I missing?

I'm finding (once again) my minor in Journalism is more useful than anything else so far.

Keep up the ideas! I'm listening!