Job Discussion Forums

[Leon Purvis]

In another thread regarding FTs having to pay for school sponsored outings while the Chinese teachers pay nothing, OGFT made the following remark:

>>>it would seem that you [meaning me, the original poster] would embrace this form of double standard as you have often championed the Chinese teachers plight as to lower pay for the same job done by an FT...

[M]aybe this is just an "evening out" based on your communicating to the Chinese staff that you understand the inadequacy and the unfairness of the two tiered scale system...and they, knowing that you understood decided to make it more fair by charging the high wage earner and by subsidising the low wage earner...see your mouth may have got you into this double standard..your sympathy for these matters may have come back to haunt you...have a good time...but maybe you should remember the first rule of the FT..what is Chinese should stay Chinese and what is foreign stays foreign...<<<

First, in order to subscribe to the belief that there really IS a double standard and a supposedly unfair two-tiered pay system, one must believe that all of the FTs and all of the Chinese English teachers are peers. One must also be able to argue that the Chinese teachers and the FTs are REALLY doing the same job. Where I teach, I just don't see that happening.

In MY institution, this just is not true. There are Chinese teachers who have read very little American literature and who have taken no courses in literary criticism, yet they "teach" American literature to Chinese English majors.

At MY institution there are Chinese teachers whose mastery of English is nonexistent but they teach oral English anyway. True, there are teachers who speak well and appear to be qualified teachers, but they do not have the classroom experience that many FTs have. Most also lack the research experience which is part and parcel of BA level American University education.

Can a Chinese BA level "English" teacher be considered a peer of a masters level or doctoral level English (or related) major FT simply because the Chinese teacher speaks Chinese but the FT does not? Hardly.

And what of a BA level English major Chinese teacher and a BA level FT English teacher? Can they really be considered peers?

Can an MA (or the equivalent) level Chinese teacher whose major is economics considered the FT English teacher's peer in any sense?

Granted, there are high school level FTs with and without TESOL and such certificates teaching in China whose level of formal education may be used as an example of a double standard and/or a two-tiered system. I cannot argue this proposal because my experience with such FTs is limited. Therefore, I cannot make a fair comment based upon experience.

Is there a REALLY an unfair double standard or an unfair two-tiered pay scale in which the Chinese teacher gets a raw deal?

The Chinese government doesn't seem to think so. When I consider my own experiences* with Chinese teachers at my school I can't think so either.

Where is it written that "the first rule of the FT [is that] what is Chinese should stay Chinese and what is foreign stays foreign.." Whose little black book did that come from?


*Experiences may differ from teacher to teacher and from school to school.

[no_exit]

[cj750]

I would say he is not qualified to make those kinds of evaluations...first to even come close to being on the same level ..all FTs would have to have completed a "Education Program" witha degree or certficate awarded upon completion.

Don't kid your self.... the chinese teachers do all the work when it comes to teaching the little brats English...the FTs are window dressing..but given that a FT has a teaching licence form any state..the respect level and pay goes up..that is why a licence teacher can command 22 to 31K RMB per month...and if licenced and working for a University from a western country, a consultant can pull in over 2000USD per month, just for helping the students with their English needs such as filling out the forms...writing admission papers and such.....these are real creditials..

Other wise the FT is left to the devices of the market and it has nothing to do with the Chinese govement..let alone with qualifications of a simple BA..right now the market is on your side..enjoy it while you can...

As to the saying "What is Chinese, should stay Chinese and what is foreign should stay foreign" is mearly an old saying that indicates that cultural understandings and practice is better left unchallanged...that is if yur making more money..dont go on about the fact that your think your better qualified than the Chinese teachers are..just enjoy the fact that because of a fluke in the market ..you get a better deal..and you will never be offered the perks that some and I mean some Chinese teachers are..such as unemployment , 5 year contracts, insurence to incl. family and birth...housing assistance in buyng a home..cars and such...

And also I think OGFT was talking to Roger the Dodger...not the OP

[Leon Purvis]

cj750 and no_exit:

You raise valid points regarding the uneducated FT vs the educated CT. It must be frustrating to the Chinese teachers to behold the appearance of some of the FTs and to hear what they're teaching in the class room.

I cannot speak of the private schools as I have only experience in the public college and university in China. As far as I know, there are minimum education requirements for FTs who work in the public system. Those requirements should be enforced. Perhaps then there couldn't be a "two-tier system" or a double standard.

Perhaps with a little enforcement of educational requirements the term "Foreign Expert" would have more meaning. [Interestingly, I turned to the SAFEA page and looked under Educational Requirements, and the page was 404-- can't be found!]

I am unsure if Chinese teachers who are better at teaching for the entry tests are necessarily better teachers overall or any better qualified than an FT with similar education and experience. The FTs aren't here to coach students to pass tests. Our mission is a different and separate one from that of the CTs. I wonder if we can agree on that point.

[cj750]

absofu*kinlutly.....

and dont get me wrong..I am not here to sing the prases of the Chinese..I enjoy making the money I make and often wonder how they do it..get by of cource on a paycheck of less than 300 USD per month..as many do...as to Chinese teachers prepairing students for the test..in this situation..that is their job...and at the present ..also mine...working with chinese educators that are prepairing students for Engineering and Physics, I prefer to leave them on their own and not mix to much...they take care of the numbers and I the test prep...I make more money, they have more security, I am more free and they have more perks...but they are pleasent enough..most are in their twilight years...while I am in the winter of my madness... in my case I do not work for a Chinese University but a foreign one( my contract is not the standard Goverment contract nor is it a chinese document...so they do not seem to be jealous of my check..as my employment is looked at as a foreign job..anyway..even if there is a double standard..I enjoy it...

[Steppenwolf]

[Shan-Shan]

Many months ago, I started a thread regarding my attempts to have a monthly get together with the factory's Chinese English teachers to discuss language teaching methods. The initial reaction was positive. I sat in on several Chinese English teachers classes and viewed what I had expected: teacher reads from a vocabulary book, or short story, and students repeat. The Chinese English teacher occasionally spoke about the etymology of a word, drew attention to the odd grammar point, and did quick memory drills where students had a minute to memorize a group of unrelated words on the board after which the teacher would terrorize select students by saying the Chinese version as a way to ellicit the English.

In the end, the teachers themselves resisted the idea of a get together. The reasons were two-fold. I was told by two teachers that a meeting with the FT would reveal their poor English skills. The other reason was that they admitted that they used no method to teach, just read from the prescribed CET prep book and told the students which words to remember. Thus, there would be nothing to discuss.

That's your Chinese English teacher (at least where I am). No training in how to teach a language whatsoever (archaic or otherwise). Anyone who can read from a book, explain the meanings of words, and direct students on how to write a sentence in English can be a Chinese English teacher. To be a foreign English teacher, some stupid grins must be added to the mix. Aside from that, it's only smoke, mirrors, and a lot of independent study on the part of the student to pass their exams.

Watch how your students study English (i.e. repeat/rewrite isolated words again and again), and you'll get a good idea about how the Chinese English teacher teaches. Were we given the vocabulary list and grammar requirements for the CET, many of us here, I believe, could do a better job preparing the students through controlled linguistic exercises which were then followed by a more communicative application of the studied language as a means to aid retention. That's at least one approach anyhow.

Weighing a BA against an MA means little. How one is able to have students succeed at learning a language is where the focus should be. It would be eye-opening were we able to have some ESL students post here about their learning experiences with different teaching styles (delivered via a BA or MA). Students, not us, know which methods work the best for them.

[Shan-Shan]

Perhaps in the next coming decades the situation will be reversed. Those here now, or later, with degrees in Chinese will be complaining about all those high-school drop out Chinese coming to North America and teaching Chinese for double what they make eventhough they have a degree in Asian studies from some top university.

But the counter argument might very well be that the Chinese are native speakers, have greater intimacy with the language, and don't speak the Chinese many North American crackers do (i.e. the kind written in text books used by Da Shan before he struck it rich in Beijing).

Being a native speaker -- an educated native speaker who can speak English well, not good -- provides an immense advantage for students that should not be undervalued -- a lifetime of speaking the language, writing it, and knowing what sounds and reads correct. Personally, I'd prefer a Chinese person with an undergraduate degree in Chinese literature who also possesses a teaching certificate to a white Canuck who studied Chinese for a year or two in China, and who has a Masters in Asian Studies, to be my Chinese teacher.

Then again, many of the CET prep questions I've come across are not English anyways, but a peculiar Chinglish. Quite often the wrong answer is the right answer. That said, those of us here should start learning how to speak gooder so as to able tell the students what are wrong and righter answers to CET.

[Ruth]

Thread topic: are FTs and Chinese Teachers peers? My husband and I have been at the same senior middle school for 3 years now, starting our 4th school year. We have been at the school longer than all of the students. We have never been included in the loop that applies to all the other teachers (Chinese - we are the only FTs). We are NOT the peers of our coworkers. This is not by choice; it just is. Some of our coworkers are very good friends. We even share educational philosophical discussions with some of our coworkers and one VP. But, in the grand scheme of things, we just don't matter. Right now, oral English doesn't matter on the university entrance exam either, so the higher-ups see us as even less value. We are a feather in the cap of the #2 school because the #1 school doesn't employ foreigners.

[Leon Purvis]

[vikdk]

differences - why so much emphasis on the personal differences - why not drop the question of peers and replace it with the concept of social norms and think more in terms of situation - you know, how our Chinese counterparts act in relation to the norms of their professional situations. After all if you change the situation, and let the human out - maybe you to could get situations like Ruth described -

[poopsicola]

Ruth wrote:

[quote]But, in the grand scheme of things, we just don't matter. Right now, oral English doesn't matter on the university entrance exam either, so the higher-ups see us as even less value.[/quote]

I don't think this is quite true, Ruth. After all, the listening component of the examination has a 20% weighting. Nevertheless, in essence, what you say is correct. I note that Chinese teachers often see themselves as being better able to prepare students for that listening component. Indeed, false knowledge takes some of them to the point where they feel better prepared to record listening exercises themselves than the foreign teachers. I have heard appalling sounds coming from examination classrooms and discovered it to be English wherein some young Turk attempts to affect an American accent and ends with a dreadful whine - and the students are supposed to understand it.

In this area, the Zhong Kao Listening test is always recorded by very, very bad Chinese English speakers - when there must be hundreds of foreign teachers available for the task. Maybe ft's aren't trusted with the confidentiality of the exam bit.

[vikdk]

[Steppenwolf]

[vikdk]