Job Discussion Forums

[luckbox]

No doubt this issue (discipline) has been discussed ad nauseum on this board in the past, especially among ALTs. But I want to focus on one particular angle.

I've noticed some general trends over my 3 years of ALT work in public schools. And my most recent experience sums it up. My primary school's grade 3 class is divided into two sections, and I teach both separately. All kids are roughly the same age, come from the same small town, share lots in common. Yet, the two sections are on different planets when it comes to behavoir. Section A is a pack of little monsters, routinely acting out, screaming, disobeying the HR teacher's demands. Totally insolent. They are so bad that even a simple aisatsu to begin the class is almost impossible to achieve without hoots, yells, and some kid pushing another kid over some prior playground dispute. Section B are orderly little angels, and I always have their undivided attention. Even where physical appearance is concerned, the well-behaved section are students who are better groomed than their Section A counterparts. The bad section are a rag-tag bunch of mud-caked brats who look (and sometimes smell) like they haven't bathed or combed their hair in weeks.

Here's a difference between the two sections. The bad section's homeroom teacher is a very sweet, young woman. Too sweet. And maybe too young. She has almost no respect from her brats. And she seems unable or unwilling to gain that respect through tough discipline. Conversely, the good section of this grade 3 class are led by a home room teacher who is older, male and takes absolutey zero shyte from any student. There have been instances where he's pulled students aside (students who may not have been acting out, but were on the verge of doing so), and he set the law down, firmly and clearly. The kid promptly falls back in line, much to appreciation of me - the ALT.

The trend I've noticed in Japan is that young female teachers garner far less respect in the classroom than older female, but especially older male teachers. I sort of feel sorry for these younger women, because even if they try to set the law down, it rarely seems to work with any longevity or consistency. I've arrived at the conclusion that this is, partly, a reflection of broader societal values with regard to age and gender roles. It's no secret that women in Japan occupy a lower social rank in many realms of Japanese life, and I wonder if this is the main reason kids (at certain stages of behavioral development) learning under younger women get away with almost anything short of murder.

Discuss.

[furiousmilksheikali]

It certainly has been discussed before but it's a subject that will always be relevant. I too have noticed academic years where A-kumi will be a pleasure to teach and B-kumi will a pit of feral creatures (and vice versa). I think you are right that alot depends on the home room teacher but I don't think that it is always determined by whether the homeroom teacher is a man or not.

In one school I taught at, the students in 5A were lively but motivated and developed quickly - their homeroom teacher was female. 5B by contrast were a pack of hooligans who subjected their male homeroom teacher to merciless and savage humiliation. They always referred to him as "the old man" and attacked him with flying books and pens and even threw their kyushoku at him. He had no control over them and in an apparent coup d'etat a tubby little ten-year old girl became the classroom boss.

I don't know what happened to him as I left the school at the end of the year. From 5A I received colourful drawings and photographs and from 5B I got pieces of torn paper with drawings of turds on.

[TK4Lakers]

Being an ALT myself I can relate to a lot of what you're saying.

However, I think there is much more to it than just sexual orientation.

There is a young female teacher I work with who is an HRT for JHS 1st grade. This is only her 2nd year teaching, but she is pretty strict with her classes, and they all seem to respect and listen to her.

I think a lot has to do with prior years those "bad, rude" students experienced. In my JHS, the 3rd graders are good, mature, and adult-like in a lot of ways, the 2nd graders are the WORST and the 1st graders are really cute, sweet, and innocent.

I heard that last year, the now 2nd graders were really bad when they were 1st graders. So it makes sense that the 1st grade HRT's are laying down the law now.

It is also to my understanding that after each academic school year, the teachers all get together and split up and choose what students they want for the upcoming year, and try to make it balanced as much as possible.

Sounds like that one nice HRT hit some bad luck...

[nawlinsgurl]

This is a problem with my school too. I do the afternoon classes called "Shogako" and one day's classes are angels while the others are straight demons--to each other. Beating each other up and screaming and then crying--and that class is all 3rd grade boys!!! (I call them my "Baby Babboons Class) I'm left alone with them for 45 mins and have the hardest time trying to get them to be still and calm. The only way that has worked so far is A)Bribeing (sp) them with candy or B)Playing ABC/Number Bingo. Short of going broke from buying candy, which my boss doesn't refund me on and eventually they get tired of bingo. So it's quite a task. They won't stop harassing each other for long enough to even learn a new game. They even act out in the super-strict Taiso/Math teacher's class(but not as much as they do in mine) and I'm a girl and he's a guy. It's crazy really.

[NorthofAmerica]

I don't mean to laugh at all your misfortune but it does me well to hear that I am not the only one who is at his wit's end with discipline problems. Whenever I cover an ALT shift I find I run into some little monsters but for the most part have not had any insurmountable problems. I just count the minutes and focus on the decent kids knowing that I won't have to come back any time soon. I guess I am lucky in that regard.

In my Eikawa, on the other hand, I have some classes that I dread every week and some kids who are just berserk. Since they're parents are paying customers it is almost impossible to really discipline any kids too. Today I covered 4 classes that were all either 6 years old or younger (on top of my other class load). Some 4 year olds will just completely ignore you and demolish all your teaching supplies for 40 minutes. I pretty much hate about 85% of all my kids classes. I have no clue what to do with these kids. Today I had a group climbing up the walls and taking the whiteboard markers to every wall in the class. Somehow that was one of my better classes too haha.
Oh well, thank god they drink like fish in Japan!

[luckbox]

[Glenski]

Not sure if this applies to elementary school, but in my JHS/SHS they separated students based on certain factors, largely academic. Perhaps this is related in the OP's case?

[J.]

I empathize with you all; I think everyone here has had difficult classes whether they be at an eikaiwa, a kindergarten or high school. Working out a discipline method is essential, but it's also tricky, because (paying) parents have a lot of weight with administration, and if they complain it makes a lot of trouble that they would rather avoid. BUT, if you don't do it you will drive yourself crazy and I think there is no way that you will last as a teacher. Of course, if you hate having to discipline as much as I do, then you will have to make sure that you justify it to yourself and those you work with so that your ambivalence won't sabotage you. That means working out what you are going to do and sticking to it pretty well, with some leeway for individual cases. That works pretty well with the younger kids in smaller classes that I teach alone. ( I use short time outs.) But if another teacher is the primary and I am the ALT I really can't take over the discipline. However, I can expect respect and if the students aren't paying attention and wasting everyone's time, I will simply speak to them, asking the teacher to translate. I will try to change the class so that I make it more interesting so that they aren't quite so bored, ask them questions about the material and what they think about it, try anything to get them involved. I have also rearranged the format of high school classes so that the primary teacher teaches in the main classroom while I take students in pairs to another room to do conversation, listening and other practical skills "workshops" which get them speaking. This is working well in getting them motivated.

With kindergarten classes, where they are accompanied by their teacher, I stop the activity and ask the students to help me by trying to be a little quieter, etc. The teacher translates. Surprisingly, this works. I think the main factor is respect. I give it and expect it. If you tell young children what you expect, you are more likely to get it. Of course there are better and worse days, but I find it helps if you put enough planning into your lessons to make them fun, a little challenging, and well paced. Students who are enjoying themselves have less motivation for acting out. A key element is communication, though, and if you're like me and don't speak fluent Japanese, you have to find someone to help you.

Becoming a good teacher is a constant challenge and a process of evolution. I would venture to suggest that the teachers who have less trouble are good teachers in that they have the respect of their students. That is something that can't be demanded, I feel, but only won. But, having a system of discipline in effect allows you the breathing room to be able to do that.

[JimDunlop2]

I'm not sure how early on they start dividing the kids up that way, but I know that in the Jr. High where I taught they certainly did. I still remember my Japanese co-worker complaining about it...

"Aw, man. We gotta teach 1-1 now. Those are all the reject kids -- the worst of the worst."

If that is indeed the case, I wonder what THAT teacher did to draw the short straw and become their HRT?

In any event, I agree at least in part with the OP. I teach 198 different classes. (No, I'm not exagerating, BTW. I teach at 12 schools, and each school has 6 grades and within each grade there are up to 4 sections)... So I've definitely had a wide cross-section of Japanese HRTs to observe. There are certainly a number of young, way-too-nice teachers whom the students just take the piss out of, but that's far from being a rule... I have also seen some young, sweet ladies terrorize their classes like the bride of Satan.

Personally, I've been slowly adapting my discipline style and evolving it into something that works very well for me. As a general rule, I leave ALL discipline issues to the HRT. I involve the HRT in my teaching, explanations, activities, games, demonstrations, etc... So that when students misbehave, they aren't misbehaving for ME, they are misbehaving for their HRT, which tends to be a much more serious offense.

On that note, if I encounter teachers who are incapable of discipline, the most I will ever do is raise my voice, tell them to be quiet, and WAIT until they do. I really don't care if I have to wait the entire 45 minutes, as I'm getting paid whether they get taught or not. I have yet to encounter a class that won't shut up within 2 minutes of me waiting for them to settle down before I continue. Usually it falls on the "class leader" to do so (as it should). The students sometimes do have more respect for their class leader than they do for their teacher. If that's the case -- fine... I just make full use of the class leader to keep things moving.

If all else fails, I mention it to the administration. Once, I had the koch-sensei of a school just happen to ask me how my class went (and it was a rather rough class too) -- and I just casually mentioned some of what went on, and then I mentioned that the teacher in the room didn't seem to have a "spirit of cooperation" and seemed rather unconcerned and unwilling to help me. I don't know what transpired after I left that school, but on subsequent visits, I NEVER had a problem since. In fact, it turned 180 degrees. The koch there still asks me on occasion how my classes are doing, and I always have good news to report to him. Whatever problem there WAS, there is no longer.

This is a intensely loaded issue and there are no easy answers. Such a discussion could go on for a long, long time.