Job Discussion Forums

[Jester18]

I've been in Saudi Arabia for a few years now and I'm out of here in 9 months. I've found this country to be the best when it comes to finances, but the WORST when it comes to everything else. The lazy undisciplined students, the religion in your face, the crazy drivers, the lack of creativity anywhere and the "inshallah" attitude. I've notice a big change in myself and my wife since we arrived here. I've gained weight, had bouts of depression and more ups and downs in my marriage than before I came here. What is it w/ this place that drives people to insanity?
I know some of you will say---"just leave" --- I know that and I plan to, but I'm just curious about what other people have experienced here and how you've dealt w/ this "bizarre" place.
I truly believe that the only happy teachers here are muslim teachers or muslim-converts. I'm not slagging anyone here, I just find this place a bit over the top and too repressive---anyone agree???????

[Queen of Sheba]

[Van Norden]

You aint the lone ranger. Kind've stating the obvioius and oft-written here aren't we?

If you're a gay, sun-loving smoker who doesn't drink you won't want for much in Saudi.

[Queen of Sheba]

[scot47]

If you find Saudi difficult you need a weekend in Lagos or Dacca. Maybe Bombay? Sao Paulo ?

KSA is streets ahead of any of these places. And of some places in the US and UK !

[Kaspar Hauser]

[Queen of Sheba]

[Cleopatra]

[Abba]

I agree with both Queen of Sheba and Cleopatraon on their replies and comments on this topic.
I have worked in KSA for almost 10 years, and at the end I have conclued with the following remarks:

1. KSA is a good place if you want to save money and have less workload, compared for example with UK.

2. Religion (especially Islam) has nothing to do with what the behaviour and nonsense of some of the Saudis (especially the ones in management or responsibility posts). For example, in Islam and with the majority of Islamic schools, the woman is adviced (and stress here for adivced and not obliged by force) to cover her head and wear something which do not show her body). But in KSA, the interpretation in this issue is different, where in addition to the above, she has to cover her face and the clothes should be in Black color (which it has nothing to do with Islamic teaching). That's why you find this obligation only in KSA and some of the gulf states , but not in Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Algeria, etc. Because the latter countries apply the most accepted and aggreed islamic teaching.

3. As in any country, there are good and bad guys. I have met some nice and intelligent Saudis who have nothing to do with wrongdoing in Saudia.

4. The most negative thing, which I have noticed and experienced while working in KSA is the descrimination in labour law between the Saudis and Non-Saudis, eventhough I am a Muslim, but I felt like I was a second class citizen (vis-a-vis regulations and labour laws).

5. Most of the muslims who are working in KSA are not happy (internally), but they cannot show it in public because they fear to be fired from their post. Also, the majority of them have no alternative but to stay in KSA (best worse cae, than returning to their home country , for example, Egypt or Seria etc).

6. Hapinness depends on your personnality and prefernces, you might find somebody happy in the middle of desert (like Najran), because he likes desert exploration and 4WD in the desert. Others may be happy when they goe to a pub an have a glass of a Votca!

7. The most negative thing in KSA is what is called "Kafala", and that is your passport will be taken from you and put in a "secret place" within the adminstration of your company or your boss, which is against human rights laws as well against Islamic teaching. And that is why the Saudi goverment was postponed for the GATT membership because of the problem of KAFFALA.

8 in general, KSA is a good place for short time, with the condition not to interfer in their politics, and do not complain and be like SADIK (name given for a labour worker from Bangladesh, INDIA, OR Philipine).

[Stephen Jones]

[dracotei]

I was just curoius if Cleopatra and the Queen of S are women... I am a woman and for some reason I thought you cannot travel in or out of Saudi without a man. I used to work at O'Hare and I'm pretty sure I saw that in the system - visa, etc. Has that changed? Did you travel there by yourselves or with a spouse?... Can you go anywhere in public without a man? How do you go shopping? etc I'm sort of ignorant when it comes to that part of the world so I appologize in advance for anything dumb I may have said.

[Queen of Sheba]

Dracotei - Woman may come to Saudi Arabia with their spouse, on his visa, on a work visa, or on a religious visa - if they meet those particular requirements. Work visas or spousal visas are arranged by the employer for you, and your family's behalf, if applicable. These visa and travel laws apply to both men and women.I suggest checking the Saudi Embassy in your country's website for the specific details. There are no difficulties traveling in and out of the country, once the visa is actually attained, which is usually a tedious bureaucratic process.

Many single women are working in Saudi and manage to function just fine, as long as their employer is responsible and cautious of their needs. Single women go out alone to restaurants, malls, bazaars, salons, gyms etc. with little to no problems, so long as they are wearing the proper dress and comply with the local laws of wearing a head scarf and abaya. Having said that, everyone has heard of a story or two of undue harrassment, usually verbal, from the religious police or their vigilantes. Most places, especially restaurants have designated areas just for women and families, and many women opt to hire a driver since women aren't allowed to drive in KSA. Saudi women, married or single do the same and frequent the same places. Employers help out with many legalities, like arranging shopping buses and so forth, so it's really not as difficult as you would think. However, the adjustment of relying on others to help you survive maybe more difficult than anticipated.

[dracotei]

Shukran Sheba,

I have been told that Saudi is a good place to work by many of my friends in Chicago. They were, however, of Arab descent. As I said before though, I did not think I could come there (even for work) without a husband/brother/father.

Are you from that region, originally, or did you have to adjust as well? Don't mean to be nosey, just want to know what I am up against, as far as adjusting. Also, do they take your passport away? Is it hot (especially with the hijab, or whaterver it is called in that region)? My ex is from Halil and that's what they call it there. The difference is that they also have Christians so it is not mandatory. I assume that all women have to wear it. Do you have to wear it in class, even if it is an all girls school? Is housing air conditioned? What do single women do for fun? I don't mean men, I mean - I love to dance, especially Arabic music. Are there places where women can go dance (and I don't mean entertain men)? Can a single woman go on vacation, when they have holidays? I mean leave the country and come back. Is hiring a driver reasonable, for the money you make. Do you absolutely have to be with a male when in public? If you're not, are you in danger. Could I bring my cat?... (Don't laugh, she's my baby...) I just finished "Reading Lolita in Tehran", and it sort of scared me, as far as women and their freedom goes.

I'm sorry I'm asking all of this, and you don't have to answer if I'm making you nuts. I posted really for any single woman who wants to share her experience. I'm asking pretty much everyone, in every country because I'm trying to find the right match for me. I'm pretty serious about my work, no matter what I do, so I'd like to stay for some time. In the end, I'd like to go back to my home country, Romania. I'm just trying to save some money doing what I love before I make that move. They don't pay that much there, so I'd have to secure myself a house/appt. first.

I will check with the Embassy, of course. I just wanted to hear form single women of non-Arab descent how daily life may be. It's just that when you're used to doing things one way, it's not easy to adapt. I adapt pretty fast, but for some things, I will not break my principles.

[Cleopatra]

[dracotei]

Thank you, Cleopatra. I appreciate you taking the time to answer all these questions. Generally speaking, I am pretty adaptable. I was married to a Muslim here, in the States. I respect their religion and I own a copy of the Qur'an due to my own curiosity. I also realize that not all Muslim countries are the same. However, there are major similarities between Iran and Saudi when it comes to women and dress code. Last time I checked the visa system at O'Hare International Airport in Chicago, a woman could not enter Iran or Saudi unless she had proper dress. In that respect the two countries are similar to each other, but different form other Mid East countries where a woman does not need specific dress unless she goes into a mosque. In short, I didn't mean I'm ignorant in general, though I run into that kind on a daily basis; I'm just not that well informed on Saudi in particular.

I have, however, heard people have been pulled out of their office to watch a public beheading in Saudi (my ex boss lived there some time ago, hopefully that's changed). True, I've read a lot of feminist theory (Lacan, Irigaray, Cixous, Kristeva - mind you, most has to do with language, not bra burning type stuff). I am also aware of the role of women in true Islam, and, especially the sacred role of the mother according to Prophet Mohamed. In principle, my question here is similar to what I asked in the China forum... do they still eat cats in China? I know I could not stomach seeing certain things - abuse to animals, children, women - basically, ones who are vulnerable in a predominantly male world. On the other hand, I would not go there trying to change their way of life just because I don't agree with it. As long as I am safe, and I don't have to see nasty things, I'll be ok. I may want to see my family in Europe once a year possibly, hence the holiday leave question. Finally, I have a cat that I would not want to leave with someone else. Have any of you brought pets with?

As far as the book I mentioned goes, it is written by a professor who teaches at the John Hopkins University. It's a book of memoirs told in... books. There are a couple of veiled women on the cover, but that's not how I pick what I read. I read it because I heard the authour speak on public radio. It interested me because she was a teacher who was not allowed to teach certain books, such as Lolita and Great Gatsby. I lived in communism so the idea of censorship is certainly not alien to me. I read it because the condition of women worldwide as well as literature and, in particular, women's literature interests me. The education of women as well as passing knowledge from mother to daughter is something I 'd like to study more in depth. In any case, the author paints a pretty grim picture of Iran. I don't think it's a best seller. I generally am very careful about what I read and I am a fan of Plato, "might isn't always right". In other words, just because everybody says/does something, I don't necessarily believe it/do it. I don't really watch TV here, so my mind is pretty clear of misinformation due to prejudice. I like to get this information by talking to people like you, and, of course, natives. If I'm going to have an opinion on something, I'd prefer it to be a educated one. I thank you again for taking the time to share your knowledge. I enjoy learning from you.

Chris