Job Discussion Forums

[nomadder]

I wonder are we English speakers some of the meanest on the planet? On this forum it's not hard to find yourself a major target of people's anger, self righteousness, grammatical persnicketiness and more. Personal attacks of a low nature are common place when all you did was bring up a general issue or opinion. Politeness goes out the window as we have to get in our digs at complete strangers. Worse yet you sometimes find yourself fighting back and being drawn down.

Meanwhile Asia is well known for the idea of not letting people lose face. Atleast on the surface there is more politeness and smiling. They usually make an effort to hide their more nasty side. Generally the rule: the less said, the better seems to hold. In Japan salesclerks will smile and virtually massage your hand while giving back change. The word no is avoided at all costs and the bowing has a certain sweet humbleness in it-a sense of respect. Lying to save hurting someone's feelings is common place even if it can be transparent. Yet some would say there can be coldness and lack of emotion. In Seoul I saw a vicious street catfight between 2 women with a child as witness.

So I wonder if you really get to know the culture of your host country does it seem meaner or nicer than what you find with English speaking cultures. Is it just the way we sometimes treat our own? What do you think of where you are now?

Disclaimer: I don't mean ALL the people in English culture-but more than enough.

[Tong Dawei]

[guest of Japan]

I'm not going to try to do a comparison, but I do sincerely believe that the percieved politeness of Japan is a falsehood. Yes, they are nice to foreigners. Yes, store clerks are polite (if not knowledgeable). Yes, people of lower or equal status are polite to others.

But, all this politeness is out the window when one party is in a more powerful position than the other. Bosses are often rude and ruthless to their employees. There is no effort whatsoever made by the person in a superior position to speak on even superficial equal terms with the underlings. The underling is always courteous and accomodating.

Store clerks always say thank you, but I have never seen a Japanese person say thank you for a service after it was given in Japan. They are infamous for this same problem when they travel abroad.

People are only polite in Japan to guests, superiors and people who have something they want.

This observation is extremely general, but I've known corporate CEO's with a lot more respect and politeness for nobodies than Japanese middle managers and principals.

[SweetOne]

Hi Nomadder! I appreciate your concern, but I don't think the rudeness witnessed in this forum is unique to English speakers. For some bizzare reason, a lot of people think that since they have the anonymity of a computer they can be rude, crude and socially unacceptable. They likely experience powerlessness in thier lives and have no control over their emotions as a consequence. Polite decorum and decency lose out when they gain "power" here. They can be verbally abusive within the privacy of thier own home/office. The need to spew forth venom overtakes their humanity.

True, I have never read a message thread in another language, but, I think it is safe to assume that sick people are sick people no matter what their language and/or culture. Please bear in mind the definition of "sick" in this instance doesn't necessarily mean a diagnosable mental illness, but, possibly, a sickness of spirit. Such seems to be the case with a lot of people posting here. I have mentioned this in cases where I witnessed it and only hope that the those who are mean are ignored by those who have something worthwhile to contribute. Since I am wont to pray and meditate, lately I find myself including some of the posters here in those prayers. It can't hurt.

Peace, Love and Happiness
SweetOne

[Cobra]

Wait a darn minute! This forum is tame compared to the China Off Topic Forum. Have a look at the limerick contest. See if that puke doesn't turn your stomach.

[Roger]

Well, Nomadder, 'rudeness' is a judgmental figment of one's mind, not an objective quality.
May I humbly submit that some of your submissions invite certain reactions. There is a German saying:
"WIE ES IN DEN WALD TOENT, SO TOENT ES ZURUECK",
or in plain English: Whatever you shout into a forest echoes back to you!

I do not know if I have ever offended you, but the title of this thread does suggest that you and I do not see eye to eye on many things.

Maybe some of us have grown a little oversensitive to anti-Western biases because we are daily being bombarded with bigotted, biased and plain xenophobic reactions that you seem to subsume under the East Asian concept of 'not letting someone lose face".
Yes, it is true - my Chinese opposite numbers do not lose face - but I do, quite often, by the way, and not necessarily always through my own faults.

[M@tt]

it's got a lot more to do with EFLers than English speakers.

[AlexW]

...so no need to get sucked into a spiral of post-colonialist guilt. Any language I've read bulletin boards in (only European ones, admittedly) has its own 800*600 pixels of pointless cruelty somewhere.

Losing face is fine when you don't have a face to lose.

[dduck]

[Corey]

...much like the cultural revolution in China I suppose...

[Cobra]

Are you by chance referring to the "sleeper cell" here at Dave's? You know, the one that just refuses to give us any rest from their constant verbal attacks on everyone about everything?

[Cobra]

Oh PLEASE. Go back to sleep!

I think this thread was dedicated to you!

[Cobra]

Oh Magnificant Manager you humble me by merely making referance to me in your articulate post. Than you grand pubah!!

[Capergirl]

[cafebleu]

Once again Nomadder starts a thread that has people thinking! I like it!

I agree with Capergirl that the anonymity of the computer allows people to say what they like to the point of being mean and attacking people. I also think that English speakers are more willing to discuss, debate, critique - and overall I enjoy that and think it is an admirable quality when it doesn`t get out of hand.

I think, too, that maybe the stresses of life in a country that is not ours adds a sharp edge sometimes to a debate that should not be sharp. Whether people realise they are manifesting symptoms of stress is another thing altogether.

However, there are some people who seem to enjoy being hateful.
The nastiest debate I have read here recently was that started by the so called oreyade whom I think does not live in Japan. Every reasonable attempt to debate his/her attacks were met with irrational to the point of delusional and hateful further attacks. That made me harsher in my critique of the racism to be found in Japan than I would be ordinarily.

Regarding your interesting points about Japan`s soft speech and communicative norms, I have two opinions. This lack of directness is one of the reasons I enjoy living in Japan. It can be very positive and can create a soothing atmosphere. The kindly white lie can is useful at times.

On the other hand, I find in Japan that I miss the analytical abilities of people in western English speaking countries. Even fluent English speakers I have taught seem unable to formulate opinions on topics that are not controversial. Their level of debate is about that of a child under the age of 7 in a western country - no wonder when they spend their lives uttering cliches.

There is a general switching into automatic pilot regarding communication here and I am talking about in the Japanese language as well. So called atama ga ii students here memorise facts and get to top universities but cannot analyse or critique or debate in their own language.

There is also the problem of the formula here. Uttering greetings after a while has no real meaning and there is no real attempt at communication. It can be nice and I like it overall, but the Japanese seem to think that uttering a set phrase makes them superior to foreigners who don`t do that in their own country.