Job Discussion Forums

[Gregor]

For those of you just joining us...
Vikdk and I were discussing whether or not the use of Chinese in an ELT class was appropriate. It was in another thread, but it got off the topic. So I agreed to move the discussion.
We shall see if vikdk decides to join us. He probably will, as I'm a favorite target of his. But just in case, let me see if I can do a basic re-cap of the arguments so far.

I say that he gave some strong arguments in favor (which he can do, but spiced just a bit at the end with personal digs at his "target" as though there needs to be a final victor in this rhetorical battle he has set up in his head, but I digress...). He says that it's very useful, maybe even very important, in keeping discipline (I assume he's talking about the kiddies - I'm SURE of this, but I don't want to be accused of putting words into his mouth).
He adds that, again, I think, with kiddies, but maybe older students, the weaker ones might get left behind by the star pupils if the slower students don't get some help of some sort.

He may well sway me a bit on this, but so far, he hasn't swayed me much. I haven't voted in the poll yet, and I won't until I get more from vikdk and from others.
But at the moment, I say that good, creative teachers don't need it. Said teachers form a bond with the students, and so the students like them and want to learn all the more to get the teachers' favor.
I also admit that this sounds like teachers' pets, though, so we're back 'round to those star students leaving the weaker ones behind.
As far as discipline, I have never had a problem with that, ever, at any age (as low as 5 or 5 and a half), or in any country. Teachers should be prepared for that.

Now, I am willing to concede this much, now - A good, Chinese TA would be helpful, IF said TA is willing to be extremely bored for 90% of the time. I had this, very much against my wishes, in one school I worked for. The TA turned out to be wonderful. She spoke very good English and would assist me in many ways, IN ENGLISH, and only used Chinese when I personally gave her specific permission to do so, which I would, but VERY reluctantly, and rarely. Or she'd use it for discipline, which was 100% OK by me.
But the Chinese should NEVER come from the teacher. The students - especially little kids - should never know that the teacher can understand Chinese, and the TA should refuse to listen to or answer the student until the teacher has given permission for that one particular instance.
If you are lucky enough to have that situation, then I'd say that Chinese is OK in the classroom. But ONLY in that VERY controlled atmosphere, and as rarely as possible. It's supposed to be a full-immersion situation.

OK. So what do y'all think? Vikdk? You still there, buddy?

[Steppenwolf]

[Gregor]

Good point, but I was paraphrasing. I may have got it wrong. Let's see if vikdk responds.
But, yeah. Good point.

[kev7161]

[Tessio]

I believe that the use of Chinese, periodically, in class is not only OK, but beneficial in making a point. If you are able to expess the point you want to make in Chinese to the class to help them understand, I'm all for it.

I have a "Grammar" theory. I call it "The Little Words!"

In my opinion, it are the little words that make a sentence grammatically correct.

Little Words = is, are, was , were, went, will, have, has etc...

In order to explain this concept, I will speak a sentence to the class in Chinese without the "Little Word."

For example - "Wo Meigouren." = "I American."

The class usually understands that I am saying that - "I am an American."

But I was grammatically wrong. I should say - "Wo shi Meigouren."

It is the same in Yingyu.

It's not as technical as some of the folk out there make it seem.

They are just....

Yunqi = Goood Luck.

[Tessio]

Welome!

[vikdk]

[jammish]

There are times when having an assistant/use of Chinese in the class is essential. Particularly if you are teaching a textbook where some subjects are just culturally very alien to the students. It doesn't matter how great an ESL teacher you are, at times like this it needs to be explained to them in Chinese. Chinese students are fairly obtuse and will refuse to understand something until it is spoonfed to them in exact, precise detail.

[shuize]

Personally, I think "no Chinese/Japanese/etc. in the classroom" is an idea thought up by lazy English teachers as an excuse for not getting off their asses to learn the language of the country in which they are teaching.

I can't begin to count the number of people I've met here in Japan who, after failing to make themselves understood for the umpteenth time, spout off, "Well, I came here to teach English, not learn Japanese" -- even though they've been living here for decades.

[jammish]

[vikdk]

ok back, so time for shot 2-
for the purpose of the discussion it could be interesting to trace back where my opposition to Gregor's "monolingual language immersion methods" (that's my best analyretentive effort to describe what G is trying to create) come from -
So we have to go back to the EF DOS thread to find quotes like this -

[shuize]

[no_exit]

I use Chinese in my classroom for one simple purpose, and that is building a rapport with my students. Children especially can be incredibly intimidated by an all English classroom. I've found they're less likely to ask questions for fear of making a mistake, and in general are more shy and reserved when they fear that the teacher doesn't understand them.

I set an example for my students. My students often tell me they hope that one day they can speak English as well as I can speak Chinese. I often use Chinese to chat with my students, to get to know them better, and to make them feel comfortable with me and in class. Foreigners can be intimidating to first time learners, especially kids, and the fear that the foreigner will not understand is hard to overcome. Because we can communicate in their L1, they can learn so much more about me and my culture than they would be able to if limited to L2. They really open up and see me in a whole different light. I like to think that seeing their teacher communicate in two languages fairly easily gives them something to aspire to.

I have a rule with Chinese though. I always speak English alongside Chinese. Even if I'm simply telling them about my family in America, or what school was like when I was a kid in the States, I will repeat each sentence that I say in Chinese in English as well. Most of my students are children, and beginners, so of course they do not understand the English part, but I hope that a connection is made at some level. We talk about things that would be completely inaccesible to them if I were to explain using only English. These kids are just learning colors and simple introductions, so if I was limited to just English with them, I would miss out on a lot of things. As it is, when I come in, my kids are excited to tell me about the new barbie they got, or to ask me whether or not my mother misses me, or if America has rice. They learn more than just the language, they learn that foreigners are people too, and become more curious about the outside world through these little exchanges.

I don't generally teach in Chinese, but I use it to discipline, and to make friends with the kids. I think that adults are another story, but even beginner adults sometimes feel more comfortable knowing that the teacher will understand them if they need to ask a question that they just can't figure out how to phrase properly in English. When I first started learning foreign languages, both Spanish and Chinese, my teachers used both languages and *gradually* weaned us off of L1. I feel the same way. When my students reach a point where they feel comfortable using L2 with me freely, they can do so, but until then, L1 will always be available to them as a backup, and I'd never want to make my students feel like they've failed at something if they have to revert to L1. I'd rather them use L1 to ask questions than not ask questions in the first place. I feel like in a class with kids, my job is not only to teach them English, but also to make them feel comfortable around foreigners, introduce them to my culture, and give them the opportunity to try out their language skills. So much of language learning is about having the confidence to try out your new skills, and in my classes the use of L1 at the beginning is essential to building that confidence.

[kev7161]

I can't believe I'm saying this but vikdk nailed it on the head by saying something to the effect of spending only one or two periods a week with a class will not allow us the pleasure of using only English all the time (I think that's what he was saying - - I can't be bothered with going back to rereading his entire posts again!). It's so true though - - but of course, that isn't an "immersion" program. Immersion would be all teachers all the time using English in all subjects every day. Sort of what I do except they still have Chinese lessons, Chinese math lessons (2X a week + my 5X a week lessons), Chinese PE lessons, Chinese music lessons, plus surrounded by a Chinese environment. Stand most any of my kids alongside almost any "average" Chinese student of the same age (heck, even older) and you'll note the vast disparity between English abilities. BUT even being with them 5 days a week for 4 lessons a day doesn't bring out the English animal in them. They still revert to their more comfortable L1 when not being "forced" to use English. Also, it seems that, the older they get the more shy? indifferent? reluctant? they seem to be about using English. I don't know if it's a peer thing (even in 2nd grade!) - - - like, if they try and use English and flub it up too badly, their classmates will laugh at them or something (even though I admonish them if they do that). I constantly encourage them to try and tell them making mistakes is okay; I make them all the time. And some of my kids are little chatterboxes while some . . . ??? It's a tough row to hoe.

[Steppenwolf]

The use of Chinese in an English classroom in China sounds like affirmative action fot the retarded. It ignores the fact that our students already are overfed on Chinese as the medium of instruction. If you complain they only get 2 periods a week of English then why decimate that even further?

How do we learn how to swim? IT is by overcoming our innate fear of the wet element; this fear no one can take from us except we ourselves - by making the plunge into the water.
And Chinese students must learn to take the plunge into the lagnuage they supposedly are "studying". It is their teachers that fail them by constantly reverting to the language that affords them the greatest comfort - their own language. The permanent exposure to this comfort has a crippling effect and certainly is not good for their self-confidence building.

I note that vikdk theorises heavily, referring to sources and masters that advertise the bilingual approach as a novel way. It may work in some instances but this method is still in its infancy and in its experimental stage. "Scaffolding" can certainly also be achieved without the interference of another language on the target language; I believe kids don't need to think in parallels but start to tackle to understand concepts in their entirety in the target language.
This is particularly true of abstract ideas such as grammar. To say our students understand grammar instruction given in Chinese is nonsense. What they do "understand" is the empty shells called "words" but not their contents, i.e.semantics. There is no parallel between Chinese and English grammar - hence I can't believe it's "useful" to give our students a sinicised version of English grammar rules.

But maybe Chinese are faced with a unique challenge no other language community is faced with when learning English...research has yet to be done on this matter!
I have come across a number of more or less serious, occasionally ludcirous, propositions of making the study of foreign languages easier: someone actually suggested that the Germans should abandon the names of their double-digit numbers because German logic is radically different from English logic in naming those numbers ('48' in English = fourty-eight, in German eight-fourty).

With all these affirmative measures to "help" the laggards we may end up ... doing a huge disservice to the normal, intelligent students. Even when I went to school it was common for taxpayers and parents to complain that "not enough is done for the lazy students and nothing at all is done for the gifted students".
It was true - the intelligent, normal learners who manifested no difficulties were left to their own devices. A cruel form of punishment, perhaps, for getting ahead on their own?