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NickSelkirk
Joined: 17 Sep 2006
Posts: 7
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 Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 2:30 pm Post subject: Job without a degree... Yes I know it's been asked! |
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Hi, another repetitive question.
I'm in HK looking for a job, and it doesn't look like there is any way to get full time work (and a visa) without a University degree. I have a CertTESOL which seems to be useless. If I do the DipTESOL which is accreddited to Bachelor Degree level then I can qualify, but I need 2 years TESOL teaching experience in order to qualify for the DipTESOL.
Can anyone see a bit of a problem?
Apart from getting a few hours work at a couple of companies who are underpaying me and illegally at that, it seems like my only other option is to work in China for 2 years and then apply for the DipTESOL.
Anyone got any other ideas?
I also wanted to have a whinge about the requirement of a University degree. I think it's absolutely pointless and it angers me. If it was asking for education specific degrees then I would understand but the way I see it, with my teaching experience and my TESOL certification, I should be more qualified to teach english than a fresh university graduate of zoology... I can't think of any other reasoning apart from academic elitism. Any other ideas? |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 1:56 am Post subject: |
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| I also wanted to have a whinge about the requirement of a University degree. I think it's absolutely pointless and it angers me. If it was asking for education specific degrees then I would understand but the way I see it, with my teaching experience and my TESOL certification, I should be more qualified to teach english than a fresh university graduate of zoology... I can't think of any other reasoning apart from academic elitism. Any other ideas? |
Same situation exists in Japan. Responses are usually the same, and I hope your thread doesn't erupt into another same old tirade by everyone on this.
Nick,
The degree (as seen by employers) is necessary to show some level of educational merit (call it elitism if you will). Merit simply implies to employers that a person has stuck it out through 3 or 4 years of college for a purpose. He/She has attained a goal related to bettering himself/herself. Whether that education is seen as a mark of success in general subjects (the infamous liberal arts requirements for most degrees), I don't know, but that's how I perceive it. And, many employers post their teacher's credentials in their catalogs as a means to attract students (read: business), so it might look strange to see a teacher with experience but no degree on staff with others that have a degree. It's a perception thing, I guess, but in many Asian countries, image is very important.
I (and many others who teach) also recognize the fact that a degree in a teaching-related field would make more sense if EFL teachers had jobs that always taught seriously, but the reality is different. Conversation schools are often called centers for "edutainment". Japanese university students barely have the ability to hold a conversation, so there are many courses in oral communication (which there shouldn't be, since English is taught for 6 years in secondary education institutions, but we know otherwise why). Even huge programs like the JET Programme offer just ALTs, not teachers with licenses or teaching backgrounds (not necessary, anyway) for public schools. It all boils down to having no real governing body in the world to hold teachers accountable, and I personally don't see that happening. So, if you feel teachers should be hired without degrees, what's your take on this? Some of the blame for poor quality education can be put on the country and its government or educational system, but some can be put on teachers.
Can some people be good teachers without the degree? Sure. No argument there. Just don't go overboard and say that everyone without a degree can be a good teacher just by sheer virtue of being a native English speaker.
Can some people with degrees (BA, MA, PhD) whether in a teaching field or not be poor teachers? Sure again. Having the degree doesn't guarantee the quality of a teacher, but consider 2 things:
1) Having a teaching related degree gives one better odds at being a good teacher simply because of the education and training. This is the point in favor of having all teachers with this sort of degree, but with no governing body, there's nothing anyone can do to regulate it.
2) Having any degree does say something about [some] people's character, even if the degree is not teaching related. Please note my emphasis on "some". People will argue that they didn't have the finances or whatever to go to college, but as much as I feel for people in those situations, what about someone who struggled with poor finances or with kids and still did manage to get the degree? That's an admirable person to me, no matter what the degree is in!
Last note. If a person feels they want to be in the TEFL game for more than a year or so, they should realize what they are getting into long-term. That means a few important things.
1) You are going to face situations where your competition has degrees, and that could be the deciding factor in an employer's decision, no matter how much experience you have.
2) You might marry a local and get a spouse visa or permanent resident status, but you still have to face the employer's requirements for a job. The spouse visa doesn't require a degree, but the job might.
3) What happens after the first year or so of conversation school work (entry level in TEFL)? Do you want to stay with it for many more years? Lots of people (most?) get burned out with it in a very short time. They have only a few other choices if they want to stay in the game.
a) Leave the country and start anew in another one. It's nice for the intrepid and adventurous, and I hope such people respond here, because I'm not one of them. I found a nice place to live and wouldn't be able to uproot myself (single or otherwise) to start all over again, sometimes at square one, in another country.
b) Get more credentials to move into better paying jobs. Universities require master's degrees usually as a minimum. Even high schools ask for more credentials than just the desire to work somewhere and perhaps a year at conversation school.
c) Tough it out with strings of PT jobs and/or private lessons. While this option may yield a lot of money in some cases, it doesn't in every case, and if one has been in a foreign land a long time (the premise of my point), one might have a family to support. "Toughing it out" is not always a pleasant way to go through life, so options A and B are sometimes more attractive, but without a degree or additional credentials, option B may be blocked.
d) Start one's own school. There's a unique challenge. You can describe yourself any way you like to your students, but opening a business on your own in a foreign land (and staying in business) can be daunting. Most people don't go this route.
This post got longer than I'd intended, but I hope it helps to explain things. |
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NickSelkirk
Joined: 17 Sep 2006
Posts: 7
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| Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 4:07 am Post subject: |
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| Can some people be good teachers without the degree? Sure. No argument there. Just don't go overboard and say that everyone without a degree can be a good teacher just by sheer virtue of being a native English speaker. |
Well there is nothing in my post suggesting that, so I hope that's a general statement, or you need to read it again.
I know I've underestimated the job requirements here, but not because I don't believe myself to be a competent teacher. I have over four years experience in teaching different subjects (IT and Kung Fu) in classrooms and privately, so I'm fairly familiar and confident in the teaching environment, I know how to control a class. I know the subject material as a native speaker. All I need to practice more now is subject specific teaching material (lesson planning, materials etc).
However none if this counts officially as it is easier to set a rule that applys to all conditions than to allow a protocol to assess individual merit.
There are other countries I can go to teach for a while and see if I still like it, but even after a few years of that I can't see myself doing a university degree just to teach. I'd rather focus on relevant education like a Diploma in TESOL.
I went to HK immigration who informed me that I need a degree to show that I have a higher qualification than local HK people....Hmmm.
But apparently, I can teach english on the Working Holiday Scheme Visa, just for no more than 3 months.[/code] |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 12:18 am Post subject: |
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Glenski wrote:
Can some people be good teachers without the degree? Sure. No argument there. Just don't go overboard and say that everyone without a degree can be a good teacher just by sheer virtue of being a native English speaker.
Nick responded:
Well there is nothing in my post suggesting that, so I hope that's a general statement, or you need to read it again. |
No problem. I was just covering bases in case you did think like that. So many people do, I just wanted to head it off at the pass.
| Quote: |
| know I've underestimated the job requirements here, but not because I don't believe myself to be a competent teacher. I have over four years experience in teaching different subjects (IT and Kung Fu) in classrooms and privately, so I'm fairly familiar and confident in the teaching environment, I know how to control a class. |
In general terms as a teacher, I would think these experiences will serve you well. Teaching English to foreigners, however, is not the same. I hope you realize that. (more below)
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| I know the subject material as a native speaker. All I need to practice more now is subject specific teaching material (lesson planning, materials etc). |
You may be a native English speaker, but so is my mother and she certainly doesn't "know the subject material". My wife is a Japanese, and she doesn't know enough about her own language to teach me (her own admission). I don't want to read too much into your first statement above, because of your following statement, but please understand a few things.
1. Teaching conversational English can be dirt easy or fairly hard. Dirt easy means yes, you are the native speaker with your own intonation and accent, and yes you may even remember some of the grammar rules you were taught in high school, and yes it's not a rocket scientist position with such small classes and casual atmosphere. Heck, you might even have a teaching format already prepared by the school for you to use.
2. Fairly hard means the following. You might NOT have the pre-planned format, so you have to think up every lesson on your own. Maybe without a textbook. Lessons may be 45 minutes or 90 minutes long, and that can be a challenge for someone who hasn't done it. You have to speak as little as possible to give students as much time as possible to use their own abilities. Knowing when to be quiet is as important as knowing how to make the lesson plan itself. Always go in with an alternate plan if something backfires. Know how to correct students' mistakes properly to avoid smothering them. I could go on, but I hope you get the point.
Teaching English can be considered a walk in the park for those who don't care about what they are doing, too. You might even find yourself in a situation where it's not really necessary to act like a serious headmaster type. Plenty of bad teachers out there who go overseas for all the wrong reasons. (Look at the thread on "looniest teacher" for some prime examples of nut cases!)
If you are serious about teaching English, look into certification and teaching theory. |
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paulino79
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 1
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| Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 10:35 am Post subject: |
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Was interested to read your posts, guys; I find myself in a similar situation - I have a CELTA certificate but no degree. I understand what both of you are saying in that I think it is ridiculous that some schools/language centres/whatever will hire anyone with any degree over someone who has relevant teaching experience, yet I can also see the sense that they want people who have demonstrated an ability to knuckle down and work hard.
I myself came top of my course when I took my CELTA (above people who are "educated") and have two years worth of classroom experience in the UK (a challenge in itself without a degree) but I have been struggling in my search for work overseas. Many places will simply not grant you a visa without at least a Bachelor's, but obviously we cannot blame the schools for this. I have found that the only way really is by word of mouth and strong references. Perhaps you could get some reccomendations from your course tutors of former students Nick? The only other option I see open for you is one that I am considering very seriously as well, which is going back to school and studying for a degree - any one seems to be appropriate.
On a different subject, but one that baffles me just as much, why do certain people in these forums seem intent on discrediting one another? There are certain posters who just seem to want to prove that they are better paid and more skilled teachers - what's the point? Do you people have nothing better to do than sit at a computer and engage in egotistical rants about money per hour and classroom finesse? Get a life, get a girl/boy friend and learn some manners! |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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paulino wrote:
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| I have been struggling in my search for work overseas. Many places will simply not grant you a visa without at least a Bachelor's, but obviously we cannot blame the schools for this. |
That's right, since schools don't issue visas; immigration does. Fortunately, in Japan, you can get a work visa with either a bachelor's degree under your belt or 3 years of relevant teaching experience. THat gets you past immigration, but you have to have an employer who is willing to sponsor you for it first. That's where people with the 3 years but no degree have to shine in writing cover letters and resumes! |
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