Job Discussion Forums

[Omeo]

I know this might sound like a tall order and I apologize if this has been covered, but I couldn't think of how I would search for the subject. I basicly want to gather tips from people who've learned to speak Japanese on how to do it. I'm obviously not looking for an entire course, here, but I figure regular people might be better at explaining the sentence structure and grammatical principles in easy to understand terms than a book. Does anyone have any mnemonic devices to help them remember these things? I've tried, for example, to learn the difference between 'wa' and 'ga', but I'm not sure I can see any consistency in the examples my book gives. Those particles are a real pain. I'm also trying to get use to the sentence structure. I know it's usually S-O-V, but that's not always the case.

So, again, I'm looking for any helpful little things people have noticed about the language that've helped them learn it and speak it. If this has been covered, maybe somebody could point me to the thread, 'cause like I said, I couldn't think of what key word(s) I would use to look for this. Thank you.

[kdynamic]

You need a structured course (that is, a textbook), and you need to put in the time and effort to get yourself a good foundation. Without it, trying to answer your questions will just have us going in circles. Have you tried signing up for a class in your area?

If you have any specific questions about Japanese I would be glad to try and help out, but your post just basically asked for an explanation of the entire language. There are no shortcuts really - you need a textbook (and ideally a class), and a good dose of discipline and commitment.

The short version: wa and ga will likely haunt you for years to come. It's one of those distinctions that can be explained in some instances, but there is a lot of overlap. Most Japanese people can't explain it other than it "feels right" in many cases. The best way to get better at using the right one is to listen to a lot of native Japanese speech.

In nice, clean Japanese the order is SOV, but in real life Japanese, it's pretty much up to the stylistic choices of the speaker. The grammar lets the order be very free (unlike English). Usually the verb is at the end though, and when it's not it's due to obvious displacement.

[Omeo]

I have the Rosetta Stone software course, which is good at expanding your vocabulary, but so far doesn't do much to help you understand the grammatical principles like the ones I asked about. I also have a good book on Japanese grammar. I was just hoping regular people could explain some of it better. I figured it was worth asking.

From what little I understand, 'wa' seems to refer to more general subjects and 'ga' seems to be more specific. For example, you might use 'wa' to refer to A tree, but you'd use 'ga' to refer to THAT tree, I think.

[kdynamic]

I am telling you dude, the wa/ga thing is really, really subtle and you can't come up with a hard and fast rule that applies in all situations. The tagline is wa is for topics and ga is for subjects, and wa is also for comparisons. Even if you understand what that means it's difficult because the way we think of what a subject is with our English-wired brains is pretty different from what a Japanese subject is sometimes (such as the ができる form, which we construct so differently in English). And a lot of times you can actually use either one grammatically, but your choice influences the meaning and/or tone of the sentence.

I think Elenor Hartz Jordan's books do a pretty good idea of explaining this sort of thing, if you're looking for a recommendation.

If you post an example of a wa/ga distinction, I can try to explain why it's one and not the other.

And while vocabulary is great, and it's good to hear you have a grammar book, you really need a comprehensive textbook and I would strongly encourage you to get a teacher as well (private tutor or a class).

[king kakipi]

Great song. Makes me laugh every time I hear it.

[japanman]

The wa and ga stuff is rather endless and has so many meanings. Some verbs can only only take on ga as their preposition, such as wakaru (understand) and shiru (know). But its more complex than that. One important point to note though is that often, with wa, what is after the wa is imortant but with ga, what comes before the ga is important. So, watashi wa ikimasu and watashi ga ikimasu have slightly different meanings.
Using textbooks at first is the best, rather like learning fixed rigid scales in music. Then once these rules and examples are internalised it will come.
Anothere tip is to go for the JLPT every year, gives you something to aim at. My only problem is that i've been stuck betweeb level three and two for ages now but I think many people are in that boat.

[kdynamic]

Three and two is a huge jump... I think to make it you need to buckle down and absorb huge amounts of kanji and vocabulary, as well as internalize basically all basic grammar. Not an easy task. But stick with it!

You going for two this year?

[Venti]

[Quibby84]

Is the book earlier recommended one that is helpful for understanding and learning japanese or does it just explain how it works? What is a good text book that I could get to learn japanese?

[JimDunlop2]

If you have ever struggled with particles (words like wa and ga) then you NEED this book:

All About Particles: A Handbook of Japanese Function Words
by: Naoko Chino
ISBN 4-7700-2781-8

I can't give an Amazon link or anything because I'm at work and our school computers block out any and all online shopping sites. But I'm sure everyone can find it on their own with the above info.

Good luck.

P.S. I'm a fan of the Minna no Nihongo series. IMO it's better than Japanese for Busy People as it's not a TOPICAL textbook like JBP is... I.e. I don't want to have to wait until Chapter X just to learn how to make a phone call or to "go shopping." MNN teaches in terms of grammatical points... So you learn the different verb forms and grammatical structures -- and you can start having meaningful conversations a lot sooner than with JBP. The only complaint that I have is that it makes you wait till Chapter 14 to learn the "-TE" form, and I also would prefer learning dictionary form BEFORE learning the "-MASU" form.... But it's not the end of the world to do it their way. Just takes longer IMO.

[furiousmilksheikali]

I second the all-about particles tip. But I would also recommend "A Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar" by Seiichi Makino and Michio Tsutsui.

It looks like this only it's yellow. This one is the intermediate level one.

[Venti]

[kdynamic]

Yep I would have to agree. I have had the blue book on my shelf for years and it's pretty awesome. I only wish they had an advanced level version.

[Omeo]

Thanx for the book suggestions, guys. I'll check um out.

[canuck]