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happy employment stories w/o a degree
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hallidayml



Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Posts: 3

PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2003 7:36 pm    Post subject: happy employment stories w/o a degree Reply with quote

Can anyone out there tell me of their employment experiences teaching without a degree?
D is for Desire.
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Roger



Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 9138

PostPosted: Mon Feb 17, 2003 3:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess you want to find an ally who agrees with you that you don't need any training, yet deserve the recognition of being a full-fledged teacher!

What do you think you are capable of doing in a classroom full of foreign students studying your tongue?

Are you aware of the fact that they will need some good grounding in your first language so that you can take over?

Who has given them that grounding and competence in English?

SO, why do you think you can take a job away from someone else?

Perhaps, you are not going to take someone else's job. So, what kind of classroom activities do you expect to be doing?

My answer would be:
You can function to some extent as oral English Master of Ceremonies. I don't know how many expats are happy in such a role. Personally, I think the attrition here in China is relatively high! I seldom come across someone who lasts a full semester or year in a public school. In private training centres, you have new classes every two or three months!

I am happiest when I see the same students or learners continuously! I am more at ease knowing there is mutual respect, and I can monitor their situation in English relative to when we started. I also like variation - not just English talk shops in which the gifted few participate to the detriment of the confidence-challenged many.
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Seth



Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Posts: 575
Location: in exile

PostPosted: Mon Feb 17, 2003 3:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

At another school in this town they hired a 17 year old Canadian girl and stuck her in the kindergarten to babysit. She hadn't even graduated from high school! She has since left to finish her senior year. The same school hired a French guy to teach English, who had only a 2 year associates degree and can't speak English very well. He's now at a university in the same town! The other expats around here think he's a convict on the run. And he did end up in jail for a day for overstaying his visa until the owner of the school bribed the guards. Without a degree you're asking to be ripped off.
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SongGirl



Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 13

PostPosted: Mon Feb 17, 2003 5:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So according to you guys, all the non-degree teachers in this country are crooks trying to live the good life without any qualifications whatsoever. I agree fully that at least some training/experience in the education field is useful and necessary, but I also wanted to show up the other side of the story. So here we go: I met a man here , Master's Degree, TESOL training, experience working in Europe and the US...he told me he was so happy to be in China because he could f**** all those wonderful, meek and demure Chinese babes. He is running around with one now (she could be his daughter). Whether this affects his classroom teaching or not, I still think you have to have at least some ethical sensitivity as a base.
Yes, there are many schools hiring a foreigner just to have a foreigner. But isn't that their problem, in the end? Isn't it their problem when they don't even want to spend the money on any teaching material or resources whatsoever and asked upon a curriculum merely reply, oh, just talk, and we will pay. We won't change the current ESL system here in China by trampling on the non-degree'ers and holding certficates high up in the air. Just how much have my degrees and diplomas and certificates prepared me for the cultural struggles inside the classroom? Not at all!! Just how much does a certficate prepare you for the fact that children here have a very different way of learning than what we know? How much does that piece of paper tell about our cultural competence when it comes to making the classroom experience work for both sides, to finding that necessary compromise between Western and Chinese learning? I don't think that in the end, one can generalize the question of teaching in China with or without a degree or cert. Fact is that there are schools that don't care, and there are many schools that do care--one thing (good or bad?) about China is that just about everyone can get a job here. I am actually thinking about returning to China after my time here--once I received my Master's degree, or even PhD. Because I would like to work at a larger university and know they do care about those things. Those that don't, well, they have to decide for themselves. If they want to hire an unqualified 17 year-old, then who really is to blame? The unqualified 17 year-old taking the job? Last but not least, your diplomas, degrees and certificates will NOT shield you from the other crooks, the schools, the recruiters, the agencies--Master's or not, TESOL certifcate or not, you can still be cheated and threatened and all those crappy things that can happen here in China just might as well happen to you. They are not reserved for the party-going sloppy dope-smoking foreigners. China is not a "you are good-you go to heaven, you are bad-you go to hell" place. Our rules of logic do not apply here. I am making less as a Native Speaker than a French boy I met here who never went on to college and whose English is, well, tres Francais.
I think even China will come to a point where both sides--employers as well as employees--will face stricter regulations and guidelines to assure a more professional basis. Right now, China is still a playground, well frequented, and extremely diverse. That's just how it is. There is just as much room here for those who have the desire to really grow professionally and truly make an impact (certfied or not) as for those who simply want to experience the joy of being paid well for reliving their own personal hippie days. The blame is to put on both sides of the track. That is what I was trying to express Wink
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Seth



Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Posts: 575
Location: in exile

PostPosted: Mon Feb 17, 2003 7:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's all fine and good, but still, with at least a degree I'm sure the rip-off factor goes down considerably. If you get caught by immigration and end up in the pound, like the French fellow, and the guy pulling the guanxi strings happens to be out of town, you're out of luck.
And if I went to a university to learn a language, I'd certainly want someone who could at least speak it better than me! In nearby Anyang there's an Isreali and a Bulgarian. The Isreali speaks OK but not the Bulgarian. Small town unis will take just about anyone.
But I have met a lot of degreed scumbags in China...one just left my school back to England. He enjoyed making innuendos about his middle school students and justifying it by saying 'age of consent in Britain is 16!' I'm ending half of my sentences in exclaimation points, now I sound like Roger! Ah! Shocked
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scot47



Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 15343

PostPosted: Mon Feb 17, 2003 11:14 am    Post subject: degrees Reply with quote

As far as I am concerned if you have no degree you should not be doing this. Non-negotiable. Full stop. That does NOT mean that antone with a degree is okay. Training and experience too. Isn't life hard !!!!
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Stephen



Joined: 02 Feb 2003
Posts: 101

PostPosted: Mon Feb 17, 2003 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why do people think that education, training and experience are not important when teaching EFL?
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Freaky Deaky



Joined: 13 Feb 2003
Posts: 309
Location: In Jen's kitchen

PostPosted: Mon Feb 17, 2003 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sure. Fine and dandy to have all the degree certs and whatever, but how many schools check 'em. Especially if you're freelance - most of the schools don't give a toss - they just want a white face in the classroom. Oh, and another thing - I have met people that are qualified that cannot teach (or should not teach) and people who have no quals but make excellent teachers. I am qualified, but don't think it's something to shout about in China.
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SongGirl



Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 13

PostPosted: Mon Feb 17, 2003 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Seth...I understand your point. And you only had three exclamation points in your posting which is not that bad Wink

Scot and Stephen: I just don't believe the problem lies in people thinking they can do a specfic job without any professional training whatsoever (people like that are everywhere, not matter in which profession)--the fact is that as long as they are allowed to do the job without that training, they will think (and know) they can do it...and this country allows them to do just that.
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Stephen



Joined: 02 Feb 2003
Posts: 101

PostPosted: Mon Feb 17, 2003 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SongGirl wrote:
I just don't believe the problem lies in people thinking they can do a specfic job without any professional training whatsoever (people like that are everywhere, not matter in which profession)--the fact is that as long as they are allowed to do the job without that training, they will think (and know) they can do it...and this country allows them to do just that.


A good point, pertinent all over Asia. I would say "buyer beware", but coming from a Chinese educational background can the buyer recognise good teaching from bad? Not an easy problem to solve.

Freaky Deaky wrote:
I am qualified, but don't think it's something to shout about in China.


Why not?

Freaky Deaky wrote:
Especially if you're freelance - most of the schools don't give a toss [about qualifications]- they just want a white face in the classroom.


And is this something to be comended?
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David Bowles



Joined: 30 Jan 2003
Posts: 249

PostPosted: Mon Feb 17, 2003 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Without a degree, as far as I can see teaching must be technically illegal, because you need one for a work visa. But Chinese law can be extremely flexible- I knew a German guy who came to travel in China and ended up teaching in short-term posts all over the country. I don't think you can make a 'career' of it, in terms of job security, good wage and all, but demand for teachers is so high that you can live comfortably and fund your travelling without one.
As to a degree making you a better teacher...unless your degree is in education I can't see why that necessarily be the case. I can see why degreed-up teachers might object to degreeless ones getting the same kind of jobs- but if you compare foreign teacher-to-Chinese teacher wages everybody's getting paid far more than they are 'worth' in any case.
Happy everyday!
David
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Seth



Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Posts: 575
Location: in exile

PostPosted: Mon Feb 17, 2003 7:05 pm    Post subject: Whiner from Henan Reply with quote

--"A good point, pertinent all over Asia. I would say "buyer beware", but coming from a Chinese educational background can the buyer recognise good teaching from bad? Not an easy problem to solve."--

Indeed. When I first got here, I tried to teach English the same way I learned Spanish for 10 + years. From grade 7 in jr. high to my second year in college I learned Spanish, but they didn't want to learn the way I did. I learned this after a trial by fire with the management. 'The Moms', Raison d'etre of most language schools, complained that I wasn't 'stimulating' enough and taught too much grammar. Instead they wanted a dancing panda who will blabber on to little WeiWei even if they can't understand a thing. Since I'm American with blond hair and blue eyes, golden boy of the Chinese ESL industry, I'm to dance twice as hard. I'm sure when you climb up the ESL ladder into more professional gigs the standard improves, but down here for us newbies, it's all song and dance. Anyone who denies this is fooled by the 'conversational English' BS. 'These single-child policy rich kids want to practise their oral English!' Sure they do! Let's discuss today's topics, 'I don't know' and 'Playing with lighters.' Tomorrow we can discuss 'Sleeping in class' and 'Why my desk makes a good weapon.' Friday is a special presentation: Preventing 'finger up the butt' attacks.
The other teachers at my school who have left (I'm the only one left out of an original 4) complained about the same thing. They won't even give us books or materials, only 'make them want to learn English' and throw us into a classroom. Well, great, I think I'd rather have a lobotomy than to teach conversation to wealthy teenagers. I was the only one patient (or foolish) enough to put up with this crap to move onto something better. If an underqualified person took this job before I had the chance, good! Evil or Very Mad
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Roger



Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 9138

PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2003 12:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good post, Seth!

Yes, too many people of too many different backgrounds end up "teaching" in the Far East, especially in China. SongGirl, you need to understand a few things more! One is that many of us are not really needed. We are just the ornaments, the pets to touch and to show off. And, if their own teachers had a modern educational background then they would do all the things many of us are now doing. Mickey Mouse jobs!

We are here mainly to entertain.

You mentioned we need to learn how they teach according to their own "culture". SOrry, but here I disagree! We are here to improve their own teaching. It can only benefit if it incorporates Western-style methods! You cannot marry a cat to a dog!

Unfortunately, the English teaching here should change radically at an early level, namely right in grade 3, when they first learn English, or sometimes in kindergartens!

It is grossly arrogant for Chinese employers to expect expat teachers to function inside a Chinese institution with its idiosyncratic structures!
They should adapt before they hire us!
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SongGirl



Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 13

PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2003 2:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seth, yes, great posting, very astute observations and sooo damn true!

And Roger: trust me, I understand the situation well. I have been a class entertainer for a while myself, I know very well how things run here.

AND

this is China! You think they would adjust to us? Ahh miracles like that don't happen here. You can't come to big Chinaland and expect that they adjust (especially not to dancing pandas). And really, that is not our task here. Yes, they need to know how to do business with Westerners since obviously, they feel the need for it. They too need to learn to adjust, and definitely they need to learn how to keep us once they have lured us here. I am teaching my employer a few things right now. But no, I don't feel it is my task to overthrow their educational system. It has been founded on a culture far older than we have been around (and most cultures have been around) and it will take another 1000 years to change which is ok, cause they've got their own pace here. I had to learn that first, too. I am not Superwoman (and you would most definitely need superpowers in that venture). I never was, and I am even less here in China. I am preparing myself well for a career as a TV entertainer. As for the kids, well, all I can do is be there for the two in a class of 40 who are really interested in learning the language. As for the employer who is now even trying to get me to be his international program coordinator, I am making sure to tell him that he first needs to re-evaluate a couple of things before he can even think of making business with Germany. When I leave China, things here will go on just the same, the students will still sleep in class and group cheat in the exams and the headmasters will still be driving their Buicks while the kids sleep on straw mattresses and the Chinese English teachers will still take 6 years just to leave the kids unable to hold a simple conversation. And finally I think, I am coming to a point where I am cool with that. Why waste all that energy in trying to make China just like your home...you will have a lot of work to do that will way exceed your 20-24 hour weekly work load, and too many millions of people to convince. I am glad when I survive another day as a "teacher". Maybe we can come back someday and open up our own school somewhere in China...a good school.

Remember that China works. In itself, it works well. It is an own unique culture with (educational) values different from ours--who says one way is right, and the other wrong? Remember what we value in "our" Chinese people at home! Just the clash with other cultures, that is something that China has to work on (just as we have to learn how to "read" the Chinese mind and get our point without scarring faces). And we are here to kick their butts in that direction (hope that doesn't sound too mean).

No, this is really not a career, but still the best way to learn about how China works, non? And also a great way to collect Chinese souvenirs!
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noodles



Joined: 12 Feb 2003
Posts: 67

PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2003 12:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, so this topic seems to crop up a lot and i have read many different replies to it. Mostly though they seem to have the same theme, those teachers with a degree, in whatever field it so happens to be in, feel they are superior to those without. Yet at the same time complain about how little actual teaching they are able to do. hhhmmm, so where do these superioty complexes come from??
If they are not able to do any more than jump around in front of the class then where does the benefit of a degree come into play?
I personally beleive that a good teacher is a good teacher and if they can stimulate and motivate a class then surely thay are doing a good job.

Just my opinion...whether i have a degree or not is between me and my employers. Shocked
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