Job Discussion Forums

[scot47]

Song-girl is right. If you feel that the American or British or Canadian way is the right way and the only way, then you are in the wrong job !

Maybe all this stuff about student-centred education does not work in China or the Middle East ! Maybe all that methodology stuff they teach on CELTA and DELTA is hogwash when you try to apply it to a different culture !

[Seth]

I remember back when I took Chinese at my university how the classes went, although I didn't think much of it then. There were always about 3 or 4 white Americans in the class (although once I was the only one), the rest being Asian. Most were Koreans or Chinese Americans wanting to learn or improve their ancestral language. The westerners always sat in the front row and were always keen on participating (the few SE Asians seemed really keen as well), the Koreans sat in back and gossiped or slept. Many times the teacher (Chinese native of course) had to stop class to wake students up in the beginning, but seemed to give up and only talk to the first or second row people who were listening. Now I find myself doing the same thing. The Chinese teachers seemed to follow a general western mode of teaching (although occasionally broke out into repetition drills) and the classes were enjoyable to me. These teachers had US credentials to teach, as this was a major US university, and the Korean students' response in the classes was rather blase and apathetic. So really, is it Western vs. Asian teaching methods or is it Western vs. Asian educational systems? I think it's more the latter. In this case, degrees aren't much of a help.
If these Korean students I observed were anything like the training center students I had to teach before they were shipped off to western universities, I can definately understand the outcome. I suppose that the Chinese teachers could have jumped and hopped around to get their attention and played a bunch of games, but that would have been very unappropriate at a western university, to say the least! I doubt Koreans find Chinese to be that entertaining, anyway, unless they had a long nose and exceptionally hairy arms.
The funniest thing was when I was asking the head Chinese professor about teaching in China, and had told her about two offers I had received from Luoyang, Henan and Rizhao, Shandong. She had a pained grin on her face the entire time, like she wanted to tell me something worrysome but couldn't get herself to do it. Now I see, sayeth the blind man. But I can say that I understand my Chinese teachers much better now.

[Roger]

Well, SongGIrl you sound pretty upbeat although also a little too accepting of exoticism! For you, TEFL is a stepping-stone in a career that will take you to the world of fame and the limelight of TV's, or so you believe. Fine if you can put up with China in the meantime!

But why has this stepping-stone got to be China? I suppose, for you as a future what's-her-first name Oprah it is irrelevant. Any country would do, right?

Not so for me! Although I could easily work in many another place, I chose China. Or rather, it chose me. The Chinese are in essence making the statement that their country is now opening up and adopting Western know-how, thus it is in need of Western experts. We are guests here, but we are guests with coveted skills and know-how!

If this was not true why would China fork out huge piles of funds to import us? Why would Chinese learn English in the first place? How can they justify their huge outlays for teaching materials and copyright agreements with OXFORD and other publishers?
Because it was a strategic decision, and strategic decisions are taken based on long-term plans and aims.

This is to some extent one of my complaints: There is NO objective or goal in teaching English here! It is a free-for all, a funny, and fun, subject, perhaps the only fun subject our English majors have. YOu entertain, yes, if you like. Or else, you design a course to suit your learners. Not for learners to acquire any targeted abilities! You must be friends with your charges too! Money is almost the only thing they part with in order to get a pass grade!

The old guard had to learn Russian, and by Gosh! Those who studied it know it and can use it! Russian was not compulsory, English is! Russian is a lot harder for a Chinese to master, yet Jiang speaks it fluently, and some of my friends speak it well too! Talking about "cultural" barriers to learning English! Ha!

That is a faddish exercise, and one that, I suspect, your Chinese overlords have put in your ears! "When in Rome, or China, do as the Romans, err, Chinese do..." O, but you want to study MY language. Do you know how I should teach you my language??? If not, accept some of my input. Do as Romans do in ROME, and I will do as Chinese do in Peking! If you can't accept that, why accept us expats? You don't really need us, come on! It would be a lot cheaper, and in the face of those mediocre results a lot more cost-effective if you hired Chinese only! So, why native speakers?

Ah! It's to do with image! Face! It is a selling point! It is BUSINESS! And not education per se!
Perhaps, too, China needs us to show to its own citizens that Westerners LOVE BEING HERE! A fabulous pro-PRC statement!

Because, you see, you Westies are simpletons, and very naive at that: You are idealists. You are prepared to sacrifice a couple of years of your high salaries in your home country, job stability and other comforts that we CHinese don't care about, and you trade all that in for ... experiencing the REAL China! Or so you think!

Is modern-day socialist China (nominally-socialist, admittedly) the "real" china?

I don't think so! Our ancestors, the Greek city-states of Troy, Crete and elsewhere had probably a more advanced education system even before China came into being! The first Chinese to get a formal education were a select few boys who served the emperor. Can you imagine Greek city-states to have been successful if they had been peopled by unschooled peasants? To this day, you can find Greeks anywhere in Africa - always a wealthy and linguistically gifted elite anywhere!
Modern forms of education have been introduced to China since time immemorial, at least since as early as the 16th century! From the 19th century on, English became China's first foreign tongue, courtesy of the many missionary societies, businesses and European concessions. Interestingly, German, English and American philanthropists translated Western scientific works into Chinese (John Fryer: The Introduction of Western Science and Technology into Nineteenth-Century China).


English may have been resuscitated recently, but why? Deng Xiaoping wanted Chinese students to "learn from the advanced Western countries", but these days you must be led to think they only want to acquire some English in order to show off!

I will never be satisfied with 2 students out of 40 that show any interest - in any of my classes, there are at least 30, or 50% that are eager to learn itAa!
Otherwise, it would be a waste of MY time, not to mention theirs! Besides, a colossal misallocation of badly-needed resources.

[Albulbul]

Roger says "Russian is harder than English for Chinese to learn".

Are you sure ? Why ? It is an inflected language but on the other it has phonetic spelling. My guess is that it is at about the same level of difficulty.

What might be different is the attitude of the learner. How many Chinese students these days want to learn Russian ? Or French ? Or Spanish ? And Roger, do not oversetimate the importance of English. It is not yet the Universal Language.

[Roger]

O, I do think that Russian is a lot more difficult for Chinese to learn! Why? CHinese are grammar-challenged. Their biggest hurdle is to understand and put to use proper grammar in English - and English grammar is a lot easier to explain and drill than French, German or Latin grammar is!
Russian grammar is at least as complex as French or Latin!
I am a wee bit surprised to read that Russian (cyrillic) letters are phonetic - well, in some the former Soviet republics, they didn't adopt the cyrillic alphabet but the Roman one (Uzbekistan, and other places with an Arabic-based script). But, perhaps, you have a point there, I dunno! I lived in Moscow for a while but hardly managed to acquire any Russian...

[v to china]

ahhh the debate of to have a Uni degree or not....I don't, however I do have post secondary education. With my post secondary I've worked in schools in Canada but am bored of this country and am on my way over to China. Seems to me that my 3 year diploma is good enough for China so don't listen to these Educational Nazi's about the degree. Despite my measly little insignificate diploma I'm still able to find employment in China. However my diploma is in the social work field so makes it a bit different than say a degree in Economics but really who with a degree in Economics is working in the ESL world? But then again you never know and hey people who crunch numbers all day for their degree sure do make better teachers than someone who doesn't have a degree. It sickens me to think that people would equate a great teacher with educational background. But apparently the throwbacks of the world don't go on to higher education and run the countries around the world. Ohhh yeah that's right only Yale Uni grads can run the great country of America. People get over yourselves.

[Albulbul]

I can see from your prose that you are ideally suited to teaching writing skills.

[Roger]

I am one of those you so knowingly label "educational Nazis". Thanks for this epithet, and let me assure you that it says ENOUGH ABOUT YOURSELF!
There is no need to discuss merits and demerits of having an occupation-speicific education since you have qualified yourself in the most eloquent form already!

We are living in two totally disconnected worlds, mate!

When I see a snow-ball in subtropical CHina, then I call it a "snow-ball job"!

[Seth]

I don't know which is worse. People saying a MA in TEFL from Oxford is the only acceptable degree, people who say a high school degree is fine, or people who come into the middle of a relatively light-hearted dialogue and tell people to 'get over' themselves! Take time to read posts before insulting people, nobody here needs to 'get over' him/herself!

[arioch36]

The same old debate. So why do i perversely join in?

Three year vs four year??/Well where do you draw the line. I believe a "real" school will wisely make a BS a minimum. I believe that overall, A MA usually doesn't make a better teacher. It only looks good on paper.

Is this hypocritical? I don't believe that high school level is an adequate preperation for teaching english. Yes yes yes, there is that execptional 18 yr old who has better english then a BS graduate. You can always find an exception. But what is taught in the vast majority of colleges will be adequate background for teaching most students. But this does not mean the person is prepared to teach.
I did real well on my GRE's (99% percentile). I have taught. But this semester, before teaching lie lay, rise rose, I have to review. A four year degree is just the minimum. Work and effort is what makes the teacher. Many of us are not professionals, including myself at times. We go to class underprepared. We look to the admin for help, but the admin doesn't know English. That's why they hired us.
I would disagree with Roger violently about the quality of students....college students Well maybe that is hyperbole. What is hyperbole? Do most US college students know? My college students this year know this junk, and most of them are students who failed the college tests, so had to come to this three year school. My other college, most had good english. I think perhaps Roger has done more work at "language schools"
Most language schools don't care. Most. They are filled with students who are desparate...oh I never studied my english is poor, and I want to go to the UK next week. I have met very few good students at language schools.They are quick profit. And systems, institutions die slowly.

Are Chinese schools really that bad? Not when you compare it to every other non-western nation...ie (or eg? who knows? and why?) such as Japan Korea, Middle east, etc. The west has its own problems too. Why is homeschooling so popular? And private schools?

Bottom line...good parents make good students...good students don't need language schools, etc.