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matador
Joined: 07 Mar 2003
Posts: 281
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 Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 10:43 am Post subject: Tokyo: International City? |
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I recently read an article in The Indepedent newspaper:
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/this_britain/article1981727.ece
Apparently 1 in 3 people living in London were born overseas.
Question: How `multicultural` is Tokyo now? How does it compare to how it was 10 years ago in 1996? What (as you see it) is the trend for the next 10 years?
Any opinions welcome. |
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womblingfree
Joined: 04 Mar 2006
Posts: 826
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 2:41 pm Post subject: Re: Tokyo: International City? |
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| matador wrote: |
I recently read an article in The Indepedent newspaper:
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/this_britain/article1981727.ece
Apparently 1 in 3 people living in London were born overseas.
Question: How `multicultural` is Tokyo now? How does it compare to how it was 10 years ago in 1996? What (as you see it) is the trend for the next 10 years?
Any opinions welcome. |
London is possibly the most multicultural city in the world, possibly even when compared to New York. As a Londoner I find Londons diversity absolutely invigorating.
Tokyo by comparison is almost entirely mono-cultural. There are very few foreigners who are there to settle despite a fair amount of transient workers. Can you imagine getting on a bus from Shibuya to Ikebukuro and there being no ethnic Japanese in the carriage and everyone is speaking Urdu?
Apparently japan need mass immigration to maintain its workforce over the coming years. I can't see it happening myself. |
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Antonimus Prime
Joined: 02 Sep 2006
Posts: 18
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 3:38 pm Post subject: |
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Not sure about you guys but I get worse vibes from foreigners than from Japanese people, so it doesn't bother me that Tokyo is mostly inhabited by people born in Japan.
Japanese on the bus > Urdu on the bus ADOTW. |
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callmesim
Joined: 27 Oct 2005
Posts: 279
Location: London, UK
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 4:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Antonimus Prime wrote: |
Not sure about you guys but I get worse vibes from foreigners than from Japanese people, so it doesn't bother me that Tokyo is mostly inhabited by people born in Japan.
Japanese on the bus > Urdu on the bus ADOTW. |
Good point!
What is it with foreigners in Japan?! I've spoken to students about this and they too don't understand it. One said if he was in another country and saw a fellow Japanese on a train, in a shop etc. he would at least smile and acknowledge them and he can't understand why foreigners are so prickly to each other. And you know what, I couldn't give him a reason that didn't involve saying "some foreigners are twats."
Sure, it's different because in the above example it's the world vs. Japan but in a monoculture like Japan and the fact that we're identified as "foreign" and not by nationality, you kind of feel more connected to foreigners than you do the locals. Despite being a blue-eyed, pink-skinned, sun-fearing person, I've often given or recieved "compadre" nods to people who are as ethnically and nationally different from myself as you could imagine. But when it comes to the fellow caucasians, I usually get nothing but cold cold stares. WHY?!?!
And on the few occassion when I've heard people comment about "how dare they assume I speak English just because I'm white", they've missed the point. I give friendly nods and hellos to people all the time irrespective of their race if it's a situation calls for it. I used to do that in my home country too. But it's the foreigners who have this chip on their shoulder.
And the worst thing is, I think it breeds itself. Because now I'm starting to hate foreigners in this country because I see them as elitist, snobbish turds.
Does anyone have any reason why this occurs?
I understand there is that deluded group of foreigners, usually male, who wish they were Japanese. They come here, read their manga, get their girlfriend, buy their jimbei and spend their time looking down their noses at everyone else and calling them "gaijin" but surely there aren't that many of them out there...... is there?
Had to get that off my chest. It's been bothering me for far too long. |
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c-way
Joined: 19 Nov 2004
Posts: 226
Location: Kyoto, Japan
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 10:58 pm Post subject: |
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I think maybe it's a difference in perspective, because I honestly don't feel the same as you about certain things. Such as:
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| the fact that we're identified as "foreign" and not by nationality, you kind of feel more connected to foreigners than you do the locals |
When I lived in China, I definitely felt that this was the case. I too almost always gave the friendly hellos and head nods, in effect saying "What the hell, you are in CHINA too." But when I got to Japan (Kyoto), I immediately noticed that there are a lot more foreigners here and so it's not such a novelty to see another caucasian on the train, in a restaurant etc. I'm still generally friendly, but I don't really feel this intrinsic connection just because we are both not from Japan.
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| One said if he was in another country and saw a fellow Japanese on a train, in a shop etc. he would at least smile and acknowledge them |
Not really disagreeing about what your student says. But what if your student was in a place such as Guam, and he saw different groups of Japanese people everyday. Do you think he would still be inclined to make a point to acknowledge them? Just food for thought.
My personal opinion is that in big cities in Japan, such as Osaka & Tokyo, there is a tendency for people to feel more disconnected from one another. Social Psychologists study this type of phenomenon and hypothesize that a densely crowded area makes people feel more anonymous, less important (1 of millions), and less trusting of others (big cities can be dangerous). This happens in big cities in America as well and I think maybe some foreigners fall into that mindset.
But I have to agree, when I first got here I too noticed that many other foreigners didn't seem to acknowledge our commonality. And, alas, I now do it too. |
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gaijinalways
Joined: 29 Nov 2005
Posts: 2279
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| Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 2:43 am Post subject: |
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Teaching connection    ?
Yes, they are some people here that have major chips on their shoulders, but larger cities tend to bring it out more. Some of these people are in their own world, and overlook the fact that other foreigners are (shudder  ) living in their vicinity. But also some of them have 'gone native', which explains some of their 'culturally adjusting' behaviour.
c-way posted
| Quote: |
| I'm still generally friendly, but I don't really feel this intrinsic connection just because we are both not from Japan. |
I understand the feeling. In other cities in the world (outside of Japan) I also don't feel that as well, though I generally don't feel unfriendly, just more indifferent to other people in a city that I don't know personally..
c-way posted
| Quote: |
| Not really disagreeing about what your student says. But what if your student was in a place such as Guam, and he saw different groups of Japanese people everyday. Do you think he would still be inclined to make a point to acknowledge them? Just food for thought. |
My Japanese wife often tries to avoid these people, other Japanese she sees, though she made an exception with a photographer in France who we shared dinner with in Giverny.
I think these kinds of experiences are good to share with students, especially if they plan to study and/or work abroad as they may deal with these issues. Peole react differently to being isolated from their own ethnic group, language, etc.. |
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Antonimus Prime
Joined: 02 Sep 2006
Posts: 18
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| Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 2:57 am Post subject: |
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| I will lean towards the "you are ruining my Japanese experince theory". Since you may feel less of a novelty when another gaijin is on the train, bar whatever, but I have been here for 2 years so that novelty **** wore off a long time ago. There are also foriegners that are not from an English speaking country, I make a point to ignore people here no matter where they are from. I guess I bought into the see no people hear no people speak to no peoples! But I wouldn't ignore anyone if they to give a motion of hello, or I come in peace, don't worry about you job or girlfriend. I have met some awesome people, usually it is the Europeans that are more relaxed and secure about themselves then anyone else that I have seen here. |
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gaijinalways
Joined: 29 Nov 2005
Posts: 2279
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| Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 3:34 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Question: How `multicultural` is Tokyo now? |
number of 'different' foreigners
number of foreign restaurants
number of foreign areas in the city
different types of entertainment
foreign goods available for sale
Back to the OP's original question, not very, and it's not likely to ever be so. The number of non-Japanese in Tokyo is small, about 2% of the population. The majority of 'foreigners' in Tokyo are Koreans who were often born in Japan, and often don't speak Korean, only Japanese. The actual number of 'foreign' residents is quite small.
Another aspect is the types of areas in Tokyo. There is an 'Asian street' in Shin Okubo, and a French area in Kagurazaka (some 25-30 French restaurants, plus some bakeries, etc. in that area), but other than that, foreigners are just strewn about in Tokyo.
There are a lot of restaurants in Tokyo, but the majority of them are Japanese, and the ethnic restaurants are often more Japanized versions. I much prefer to eat out in London, NYC, or even Singapore to some extent, than in Tokyo (though the lunches here offer fairly good value).
Most entertainment in Tokyo is Japanese orientated. That doesn't look likely to change soon, with a smattering of British and Irish pubs verus thousands of izakayas. Some of the embassies do sponsor other cultural events, but many of these are closed affairs, with tickets reserved to a few, well connected individuals. Some of the so called 'cultural' events are mere marketing ploys, rather than offering any information or real cultural view, they are just platforms used to sell foreign goods.
Music here is often more suited to Japanese tastes, though of course rock, hip hop, and techno have their own versions here.
The variety of foreign goods available in Tokyo has gotten much better compared to 20 years ago, but it still lags behind more international cities that carry things from all over the world (if you know where to look) at more affordable prices. One area that is deeper than most for choice is for buying music, though the majority of stuff on sale here is J-pop. |
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markle
Joined: 17 Jan 2003
Posts: 1316
Location: Out of Japan
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| Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 12:25 pm Post subject: |
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I'm not sure I would agree withe question as it has been framed. Ethnic and cultural diversity is not the only mark of an 'international' city in fact there are many cosmopolitan cities around the world that struggle to earn the term 'international city'.
Tokyo however is a truly an international city due to it's economic, political and in some ways cultural influence on the world stage. Shanghai is the same but I'd say the ratio of local to immigrant populations / diversity of restaurants is the same.
London's multiculturalism is an artefact of it's colonial past, New York's is because it was the main point of disembarkation for the immigration that built the US. Tokyo is not that multicultural because it doesn't share the same history. |
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matador
Joined: 07 Mar 2003
Posts: 281
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| Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 12:04 am Post subject: |
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I can only speak from my own experience: In Asia, I have lived in Hong Kong, Shanghai and Tokyo. In the EU, I lived in Hamburg, Germany. I would have to say that Hamburg had the richest cultural and ethnic mixture. Tokyo would easily be at the bottom. I would see more African and Chinese faces in 30 minutes at Hamburg station than during one week in Tokyo!
But I think thats the way that the Japanese like it; why should they change? Multiculturalism may not always be the best route... I think it IS...but I can see the other side as well. |
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markle
Joined: 17 Jan 2003
Posts: 1316
Location: Out of Japan
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| Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 12:34 am Post subject: |
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| matador wrote: |
| Multiculturalism may not always be the best route. |
To what?
Multiculturalism is certainly a good way of coping with the realities of large immigrant communities (as opposed to say, forced assimilation), but it not an end in itself.
If the general consensus (on the board) is that multiculturalism means that there are lots of different places to eat then I'd say that it has failed in the West. |
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Venti
Joined: 19 Oct 2006
Posts: 171
Location: Kanto, Japan
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| Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 3:33 am Post subject: |
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One way you can see how multicultural a place is by how much they are concerned with educating people about other cultures. In the States, for example, at Christmas time Hanukkah, Christmas, and Kwanzaa are all promoted (equally? well, not a perfect world yet). As a matter of fact, you don't see the words "Merry Christmas" anywhere near as often as you see the words "Happy Holidays" at the end of the year. In schools in bigger cities children spend a lot of time learning about various cultures. When I was in grade school it was "please welcome these interesting foreign cultures that you may or may not be familiar with." Now it's par for the course to live in a multicultural society in most big American cities (I'm not foolish enough to say everyone is all that open-minded about it). Of course, things are different in Southern California and New York City compared to cities in the Midwest, but it's a fairly multicultural country.
In Japan, you pretty much have biculturalism. Japanese culture and non-Japanese culture. The Japanese take what they like from other cultures and live with it. Tokyo isn't really any different from the rest of the country. It may just be one of the coldest big cities on the face of the planet. There's not much education concerning other cultures here. Actually, an inordinate amount of time is spent on Japanese language and culture education in Japanese public schools, in my opinion.
Anyway, I still enjoy living here.  |
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matador
Joined: 07 Mar 2003
Posts: 281
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| Posted: Sun Dec 10, 2006 3:36 am Post subject: |
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| Good post, Venti. I agree with you. Markle asks a good question as well. Q. What do you think are the advantages of living in a monocultural society (as a person from outside)? How does a person from a monocultural society adapt to living in a multicultural society...? |
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gaijinalways
Joined: 29 Nov 2005
Posts: 2279
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| Posted: Sun Dec 10, 2006 5:15 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Q. What do you think are the advantages of living in a monocultural society (as a person from outside)? How does a person from a monocultural society adapt to living in a multicultural society...? |
By being exposed to various languages and cultures, most people are more open to people being different, more open to travel to these different countries, and in some ways changed mentally.
Of course in a monocultural society, speaking one language facilitates some aspects of life (communication, identification, etc..), but it also makes it more likely for people in that society to be less open to that which is different (all societies have this problem to some degree, but it seems like monocultural societies are far less open to foreign elements that 'threaten' to change that monocultural society).
As to how a person from a place like Japan should try to adapt to living in say for example the US, I think that before moving that a Japanese cityizen needs to examine differences between his/her society and the US and compare and understand how those differences will affect daily life and opinions that one may hear and offer in society. Some role-play training may be of benefit, as this would at least expose the monocultural society member to another view of his/her own society as well.
Of course, learning the language in each country 'automatically' exposes you to some elements of the thinking in that culture, as well as the observation of the frequency of certain words tht are used and associations made with various concepts (ideally through interactions with people from those societies). In addition, reading of American literature and movies as well as looking at common food, entertainment, etc, will better prepare the Japanese citizen for living abroad. If possible, joining some kinds of clubs even here in Japan may help to begin the process of dealing with non-Japanese.
It's not an easy process moving to a society quite different from ones' own, and moving from one multicultural society to another (or one monocultural society to another) still entails various cultural adjustments.
Venti posted
| Quote: |
| There's not much education concerning other cultures here. Actually, an inordinate amount of time is spent on Japanese language and culture education in Japanese public schools, in my opinion. |
Teaching culture is not a bad thing, the problem is when people keep proclaiming that their society is unique (as if all societies are not in some way) and focusing on this divisive distinction between us (our society) and them (any other society). This seems to be a defining distinction between a monocultural society and a multicultural one, and one that dangerously inflames ultranationalistic tendancies in some populations. |
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furiousmilksheikali
Joined: 31 Jul 2006
Posts: 1660
Location: In a coffee shop, splitting a 30,000 yen tab with Sekiguchi.
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| Posted: Sun Dec 10, 2006 5:23 am Post subject: |
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I remember watching an elementary class in Japanese where the students were learning to write hiragana using haikus.
The teacher explained to me: "We are teaching them to write and at the same time culturing their Japanese minds." I took it to be an unfortunate choice of words. |
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