Job Discussion Forums

[Bill Shagley]

Hi,
I was at a school the other day, and one of my Chinese friends,who is an English teacher, informed me that the school had hired some foreign teachers to train the school's local English teachers. It turned out that I knew the foreign teachers: one was a former gardner from Australia and the other used to drive a truck. The school was paying some canny local principal about 15000 rmb for 10 days training from two people without a high-school diploma to their name. These non-teachers had to instruct the locals in English teaching methods.
A friend in the South was asked to write an in-house text book. The principal looked at it for 5 minutes and said,"very good, now the important thing is that we choose the right cover."
I use these events to illustrate the point that there seems to be no actual educational standards in China. China does not want real foreign teachers whom they would have to respect or treat as a professional, and it is broadly agreed that one white face is as good as another. This is why pay is low and respect is hard to find. School owners are making money by keeping standards low, and by lying to parents about it. Unemployable people from English speaking countries are assisting in this process and it seems that there is an unending supply of fresh backpackers, weirdos, middle-aged divorcees, deadbeat dads, drug addicts, drop outs, dishonest preachers, degreeless bufoons, dole-queue refugees, post-teen-rich- kid-hippy freaks and going no-where losers to satisfy demand. Most distressing is the behavior of those who have been here for a few years and become as nasty and amoral as their bosses, acting as middle men and pawning colleagues and friends for a cut of the action.
This means that good educational standards, real wages, proper working conditions and respect are, for the majority, nowhere to be seen.
Here are some questions:
(1) Are there any real schools in China that operate at Western standards of excellence and renumeration?
(2) Are there schools where a CELTA, MA or PGCE might mean something?
(3) Will China mature to a point where it has real schools?
(4) Given recent reports and allegations concerning corrupt IELTS examiners in the British Council system, is there a danger that western standards of excellence are being corrupted by the Chinese? (Consider also the case of the Irish school owner in Shenyang who had his passport taken by local authorities because he refused to compromise Irish visa and educational standard rules.)
(5) If we work for a dodgy school, aren't we also part of the problem? Do we have a moral responsibility to uphold the highest of standards? Shouldn't we only work for real schools?
I am thinking that it is time to leave China and go to work someplace else - somewhere where teaching and education are respected and that is free of the terrible moral rot that is general is China.

[naturegirl321]

[Hamish]

[gerard]

Good point Hamish....Most FT's I have met in China have more than 1 degree and speak more than 1 language. Not the degenerate dole cases the OP suggests...And certainly a cut above the teachers I met in Korea and Thailand...But I am relatively new so....

I also take issue with the idea the CELTA should be so highly regarded. EVERYBODY is getting this thing these days and it doesn't mean anything...So you went to Thailand or wherever and made lesson plans for 4 weeks...Who cares??? An education that started in grade school is what qualifies you for this...Not so long ago teachers in the West did not have degrees---they went to a teachers traing college for a year vor two...This obsession with certs is a bit much....

[Roger]

Yes, the original poster has a number of valid points that he illustrated very well.
I do think, the teaching of foreign languages in such a parochial, narcisstically-nationalistic society is frimly on the backburner. Foreign languages are the vehicles of foreign ideas and concepts which all threaten to cause cultural pollution of local minds.
If they were serious about Chinese acquiring solid and reliable English communication skills, they would hand over their English Departments to Western-trained staff, entrusting them with implementing ANY change they might want to introduce!
I cannot understand how our Chinese partners can reasonably expect us to succeed in what Chinese English teachers do not succeed either - in making Chinese students use English communicatively, actively, independently and responsibly. To do this, our local collweages would have to adopt a few behavioral patterns that I have not seen many times in China: teach grammar, using ENGLISH ONLY, without translation ALL the time!
Speak whole sentences rather than word by word.
Teach students to find out for themselves what they need to learn (teach them, for instance, to take notes rather than to sit and wait for the teacher to hand out photocopied materials).
Teach students to think in Enlgish rather than to translate.

But even if the Chinese education system became more modern, it would not automatically lift our salaries. This is because most of our Chinese colleagues are seriously underpaid in comparison to us. The gap must not grow much larger - or there is bound to be a backlash against us.

And, there is some light in the middle of the tunnel (I can't see an end to the tunnel): there are some schools that operate according to more rational methods. Some are Taiwan-invested. Others are wholly-foreign owned.
It's the state-run schools that lack lustre and dedication. The same schools that indoctrinate their students in Chinese-Marxist views of the world.

[Hamish]

[guest of Japan]

I could be wrong Sunaru, but isn't "My family were..." acceptable in British English?

[guest of Japan]

I'm sorry Sunaru, but as I understand it, "family" is a plural noun in British English.

[Minhang Oz]

"I have a family". Isn't the object singular? Anyway, I think both singular and plural are correct ,eg, "My family is/are coming to visit", as long as you're consistent.

As for Bill's original complaint, I agree, as I do with Roger's oft postulated theory re FTs teaching teachers. Though by the time they reach uni. as English majors, it's too late in the majority of cases. Chinglish rules OK!
And considering there's a continual shortage of qualified, willing teachers even in our homelands, it's hardly likely the mostly puny salaries and often frustrating teaching conditions found in China are likely to lure enough people here to meet the demand for "real" teachers. In fact, many of the qualified and registered teachers back home are terrible teachers, and would be terrible anywhere in the world.
A rock and a hard place. What are you going to do?

ps, Sunaru, any chance of cloning your grandma?

[Hamish]

[Cobra]

Education in China is akin to assembly line mass production and teachers are the modern robots assembling the final product.

Some have called it babysitting while others have called it warehousing until jobs become available.

Bottom line, education in China lags behind the English speaking world. FEs are not the cure and in fact may have unwittinglly become part of the problem.

But neither do FEs have the solution.

But why get so exercised over this? In 25 years or so we will all be history.

[Roger]

Sunaru is an honest man to the last of his dandruff flakes! I totally go along with him in telling local teachers his piece of mind!
Fact is that China is teeming with slackers of all descriptions, and these selfsame slackers decide whether a new face gets accepted into their midst!
YOu can guess what criteria decide whether a fresh uni graduate or a foreign national gets a job!!!

Strangely enough, I am now sitting in the Dean's office of a large university with two campuses in town, having given a trial lesson and having been, yes: ACCEPTED!
What amazed me the most was that the teachers assessing me (no students, just 4 teachers, and a fifth came 40 minutes late!) had the usual difficulties using English - what's SVA? "Subject, verb, ah, maybe 'attribute'?" What's an 'infinitive'? "Oh, there are gerunds, participles, full verbs, auxiliaries...")
The guy coming to pick me up at a point of rendez-vous did not understand "Huanshi DOnglu". We met anyway, and I gave the lesson anyway,
but I feel my friend who just graduated from university, and cannot find a job, would be much better suited for this uni.
She is, after all, Chinese, and is more familiar with the mindset of these folks.
Her English is near-perfect, and only her Chinese is more perfect!
Most of her classmates with excellent English communication skills have become - translators, office clerks, travel agents, hotel receptionists...

[Egas]

Ha Mr Shagley!

I have been ranting about this topic ever since I got to China! The other day I went to a job interview at a school where I know they are paying unqualified teachers up to Y180 an hour for P/T work. As a "real" teacher I applied for a full-time job. They offered me a package that amounted to half what the part-timers get, and for an extra eight hours of office and admin. work tacked on for zero extra pay. I pointed out that if unqulified teachers could earn Y17 000 a month for doing 16 hours of work a week, why should I earn Y8000 for working 28 hours a week? Oh, I get it! If you have twice the qualifications and experience you get twice the work at half the pay! Chu ni made ba!

There are so many schools where the administrators don't have the faintest idea about education. What's worse, the students and parents (for kids' schools) don't know sh.t either. They just want a white face with an American passport attached to it.

Do what I did. If you have quals, go and teach at an international school, with foreign bosses and inernational standards.

As for the CELTA etc, I refuse to waste my money on such trash. I have a postgraduate dip. ed. (English high school teaching major) and 13 years of teaching and educational admin. experience. Why go and stick my face in a book for a month to learn crap! One school I applied to said I could only teach part-time there because I didn't have an ESL qualification. I pointed out that I had been a director of studies and Head Teacher in ESL positions, had taught in five countries and was half way through a PhD in Education. But that wasn't enough. You guessed it. Chu ni ma de ba!

[Cobra]

Welcome to China! Ain't it grand?

Love it or leave it!

If you are a real teacher and looking for a real job, P.M. me and maybe I can help for a March 2004 uni position.

[Cobra]

Sunaru my friend you have made several rash assumptions again:
1. My post was in no way directed at you. I never even gave you a thought as I was typing the post.
2. The position will not be working with me.
3. I would thoroughly enjoy working with you someday, weird sense of humor and all.
4.