|
Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Students and Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
joey2001
Joined: 26 Oct 2006
Posts: 697
|
 Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 6:38 am Post subject: Speaking Chinese - an advantage? |
 |
|
| What I'd like to know is if any Chinese-speaking FT has gotten higher pay or found a better job. I don't mean life in China being easier if you speak the language. I mean can foreigners actually earn more when they can speak Chinese, or are they treated better by employers? Does an HSK certificate help? How about Cantonese language skills? Does anyone have experiences with jobs OTHER than teaching in China? Are there any jobs as interpreters, translators, advisors etc. for foreigners who can speak and write Chinese available? |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
tw
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
Posts: 3898
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 7:48 pm Post subject: Re: Speaking Chinese - an advantage? |
|
|
| joey2001 wrote: |
| What I'd like to know is if any Chinese-speaking FT has gotten higher pay or found a better job. I don't mean life in China being easier if you speak the language. I mean can foreigners actually earn more when they can speak Chinese, or are they treated better by employers? |
From my perspective (a Chinese Canadian who speaks fluent Chinese), the answers are no to all of the questions above.
Of course, I once knew an Australian kid who charged double for private lessons because he'd taken some Chinese lessons and was able to speak some Chinese before going to Qingdao to teach. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 1:18 am Post subject: Re: Speaking Chinese - an advantage? |
|
|
| joey2001 wrote: |
| What I'd like to know is if any Chinese-speaking FT has gotten higher pay or found a better job. |
In China, as a rule I would say no, but I am sure that there are some exceptions.
If you are a whitey that speaks Chinese and earning from this is your aim then perhaps Taiwan may be a better choice. There is a �new� type of buxiban idea over there that deems a foreigner teaching English through the use of Chinese to be a much better way for the students to learn. I don�t agree with that philosophy and having taught in one of those types of schools myself I speak from personal experience here. However, Chinese speaking foreigners are in demand for those schools and you can earn NTD800-1,200 an hour as opposed to NTD600 for a non-Chinese speaking teacher.
| joey2001 wrote: |
| I don't mean life in China being easier if you speak the language. I mean can foreigners actually earn more when they can speak Chinese, or are they treated better by employers? |
To me these two things go hand in hand. Yes you would probably be treated better by an employer because you would be able to communicate effectively with them and would also have a better understanding of what is going on around you than a non-Chinese speaking foreigner. There may be a certain degree of extra respect for you from the Chinese staff for being able to speak Chinese, but I think that the biggest benefit is a more intrinsic one.
| joey2001 wrote: |
| How about Cantonese language skills? |
I doubt it unless you are in the far south of China on the border with Hong Kong.
| joey2001 wrote: |
| Does anyone have experiences with jobs OTHER than teaching in China? Are there any jobs as interpreters, translators, advisors etc. for foreigners who can speak and write Chinese available? |
That is probably where your best bet is if earning dollars in China is your aim. However the competition is getting tougher all the time as more and more westerners learn Chinese and some of them get pretty good too. So it will depend upon your level. If you are fluent in Chinese then you may have an advantage over others, but if you just speak some Chinese then I doubt that any employer is going to pay you big bucks for that.
If you can be plonked into a Chinese office among non-English speaking Chinese colleagues and get the day to day done clearly and efficiently without the need for any translation into English then you are probably at a level where you could consider your abilities marketable to an employer. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 4:11 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| If you are a whitey that speaks Chinese and earning from this is your aim then perhaps Taiwan may be a better choice. There is a �new� type of buxiban idea over there that deems a foreigner teaching English through the use of Chinese to be a much better way for the students to learn. I don�t agree with that philosophy and having taught in one of those types of schools myself I speak from personal experience here. However, Chinese speaking foreigners are in demand for those schools and you can earn NTD800-1,200 an hour as opposed to NTD600 for a non-Chinese speaking teacher. |
the same type of educational thinking has now hit the mainland for pre-school and primary English teaching, now that its excepted that even total immersion language method is most effective when the language teachers understand both The L1 and L2 of the classroom - and is perticularly starting to gain popularity in those schools, which wish to employ you as a teacher rather than a performing monkey.
For those who don't speak Chinese - then the next best alternative is a Chinese/English speaking co-teacher - and without this asset (or the ability to use Chinese) - then you can imagine the classroom anarchy that can result in a class of small children through -
1. your inabilty to to be able to effectivly maintain a well-behaved group of children though normal verbal communication. (Of course you can enforce so-called discipline through threatening them through body language - but this method jusitfy the teaching of English to small children?)
2. The boredom of Children who cannot understand what you are saying? (The typical way around this problem is just to get the kids to repeat and memorise what you are saying - without any serious or effective attempt to make them understand the language (sounds) they are learning. Bringing L1 into the classroom is a reaction to this learning by rote method).
As for wages - well there are the 4000/month type jobs out their - but in the kindy world - if you have a specialist education in this field and can handle the language problem - then 10 - 15K/month is not unusual (this isn't international schools - they of course will pay even higher for qualified teachers), since the demand for quality is high, and the supply of good teachers is dire. Speaking Chinese will only increase your chances of landing the high paying jobs - and is increasingly a factor the employer is looking for.
Clark I would interested to hear what are you negative views with regard to this method - we have had huge success with it. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
joey2001
Joined: 26 Oct 2006
Posts: 697
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 8:18 am Post subject: Re: Speaking Chinese - an advantage? |
|
|
| clark.w.griswald wrote: |
I doubt it unless you are in the far south of China on the border with Hong Kong.
|
Well, I'm in Guangdong province, in a city fairly close to Hong Kong and Macau. Not that Cantonese is of much use in the classroom, but it is the language spoken by the locals, who sometimes speak no intelligible Mandarin at all. The training center I worked for had a "no Chinese during class" rule, at least for the more advanced level classes. On the other hand, I've had lots of private students who can't even understand a single sentence in English properly, let alone say one. I've found that it does help in these situations to explain things to them in Chinese, if only to save time. It's much faster to get across the meaning of a complicated word by giving the Chinese equivalent, than try to explain it in English, which can take forever sometimes. Also, in my experience the students seem to open up a lot when they can communicate with the teacher in Chinese.
Something I've noticed teaching in China is that students often over-estimate their language skills, and I have some who insist on taking a business English course when they couldn't even pass a very basic oral English test.
I don't really expect tight-fisted employers to happily pay more for Chinese-speaking FTs. But IMO it would make some sense to ask more if you can speak the language. After all that can help the school save money, no need for the Chinese assistant/interpreter/co-teacher, who are then free to teach their own classes or do other work. Also I found that staff in training centers seldom speak English fluently, and trying to communicate often is difficult, especially when there is a disagreement. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 10:28 am Post subject: Re: Speaking Chinese - an advantage? |
|
|
| joey2001 wrote: |
| The training center I worked for had a "no Chinese during class" rule, at least for the more advanced level classes. |
That is pretty much the standard, particularly for kids English schools. The idea of course is that the students learn better if fully immersed in the language. I don�t doubt that this is true, but what seems to have been overlooked is the fact that immersion really needs to be more than two hours twice a week.
The no Chinese rule also prevents foreign teachers keen on improving their Chinese from turning the English class into some sort of language exchange which is fair since we are being taught to teach not to study. Although some of the less motivated students may like the idea of a bilingual class, I am confident that the serious learners would prefer a full English environment where they can benefit from direct practice as well as just hearing the language being used around them. I know that I learn a lot of Chinese from listening to the people around me and I believe that English students can benefit the same way.
The problem is that oftentimes once the students learn that the foreign teacher can speak Chinese they then demand explanations in Chinese for ideas that they could have benefited from hearing an explanation in English for. Sometimes the actual concept is not as important as the process of understanding the explanation.
| joey2001 wrote: |
| I've found that it does help in these situations to explain things to them in Chinese, if only to save time. It's much faster to get across the meaning of a complicated word by giving the Chinese equivalent, than try to explain it in English, which can take forever sometimes. |
I agree that there is an obvious benefit here. Sometimes a foreign teacher may spend an amount of time trying to explain a grammar point or new word only to find that the students have not understood or have even gotten the wrong idea. This is definitely a downside to an English immersion program, but then that is what the Chinese teachers or a dictionary are for.
| joey2001 wrote: |
| Also, in my experience the students seem to open up a lot when they can communicate with the teacher in Chinese. |
Open up in English or in Chinese?
| joey2001 wrote: |
| I don't really expect tight-fisted employers to happily pay more for Chinese-speaking FTs. But IMO it would make some sense to ask more if you can speak the language. After all that can help the school save money, no need for the Chinese assistant/interpreter/co-teacher, who are then free to teach their own classes or do other work. |
In many cases the opposite is true. In the case of immersion programs they would probably have a preference for teachers who don�t speak any Chinese as then there is no chance of Chinese creeping into the classroom.
| joey2001 wrote: |
| Also I found that staff in training centers seldom speak English fluently, and trying to communicate often is difficult, especially when there is a disagreement. |
That is definitely an advantage for both parties.
I have had experience in both systems and personally I believe that English immersion gets better results than those programs where foreigners teach in Chinese � but only when the actual classroom contact time is at least 8-10 hours a week. To me the ideal program would have a foreign teacher teaching at least 6 of those hours with an extra 2 hours spent on review conducted by a Chinese teacher. I think that it is best if we all teach in and concentrate on our native language when in the classroom and its hard to find foreigners who speak, read, and write Chinese better than the average Chinese teacher in my opinion. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Steppenwolf
Joined: 30 Jul 2006
Posts: 1769
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 1:33 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| A "teacher" who relies on an "interpreter" to translate his or her own lesson should be replaced by a teacher who can do a better job; why put an FT in front of a class if the students are ill equipped to communicate with him or her without some other party? It's ridiculous to rely on a Chinese "English teacher" as a translator since the Chinese English teacher could or ideally should do a the same job without having an FT "assistant". |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dajiang
Joined: 13 May 2004
Posts: 663
Location: Guilin!
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 2:01 pm Post subject: |
|
|
right, i dont think it matters as to getting a higher salary or something like that.
I've found however that it is just very helpful in dealing with small practical matters on campus and in dealing with staff. So instead of waiting for my English speaking FAO I can just go straight to the people that I need for copies/salary/schedules and that sort of thing.
also when we're invited for banquets and other out-of-school activities it's really useful in talking to people, not to mention your own colleagues by the way. It just makes life a bit more sociable at school.
as for other jobs, I know there are some foreigners working at CITS (travel company), doing all kinds of stuff such as marketing and sales. I also know of people working in hotels (most often on internships though), and embassies.
Dajiang |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 5:19 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| I believe that English immersion gets better results than those programs where foreigners teach in Chinese � but only when the actual classroom contact time is at least 8-10 hours a week. To me the ideal program would have a foreign teacher teaching at least 6 of those hours with an extra 2 hours spent on review conducted by a Chinese teacher. I think that it is best if we all teach in and concentrate on our native language |
Clark do you know what language immersion is? You should do since you come from Canada - a country that has two official languages and is a leader in L2 immersion techniques. For those who don't know - its a system of schooling that relies totaly - or as near a totaly as possible - on using The L2 as the teaching language in all classes (theory being the kids being immersed in the L2 naturally pick it up) - and is most effectivly used with younger children. Even in this type of teaching the teacher has to be fluent in both languages - since being able to speak and understand the L1 is sometimes essential.
What clark describes, the 6 hours of FT combined with 2 CT hours, is certainly not immersion - since the Chinese teachers review he mentions can be only something that is needed if the Chinese teacher reviews with the aid of the Chinese language - otherwise why use a Chinese teacher????
Clark this is a scaffolding system where an L1 supports the L2 learning - good to see you giving creedence to this type of teaching - old Steppenwolf will be proud of you.
Therefore Clark, from your last post, I gather you are promoting the use of the Chinese as an aid to teaching English - then why shouldn't the FT who has a decent ability in Chinese use this as a teaching tool rather than relying on a Chinese teacher  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2007 1:13 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Steppenwolf wrote: |
| A "teacher" who relies on an "interpreter" to translate his or her own lesson should be replaced by a teacher who can do a better job |
I agree with this to a certain degree. Chinese students can certainly be a difficult group to teach at times but that would be true of any group of students around the world. Different problems in different countries Mixed levels in one class are every teachers biggest headache in China, as are apathetic students who are only in the class because they have to be, but an experienced teacher can adapt to deal with these types of situations. I am not suggesting that things will turn out perfectly, but with a bit or work and an attempt to understand the students I believe that most teachers will find that their classes will go a lot smoother.
Teachers who complain about poor behavior of students and request Chinese teacher intervention in class control may find that looking at the reason for the kids behavior may be more fruitful than deferring responsibility to others to deal with the problems after the fact. In my experience some times the classroom control issues are in fact a direct result of poor teaching practices.
The same could be said for teachers who claim that it is the students fault for being bored and not understanding. The answer here is not always reverting to Chinese as a crutch but instead for the teacher to find a way to present the material in a more appealing and understandable way. That is the challenge of teaching and if you are going to rely on someone else to help you overcome the challenge then I would have to ask � why bother?
Sure this can all be quite difficult especially for a teacher new to China classrooms, but a dedicated teacher, regardless of qualifications, can learn to adapt their teaching style in order to reach the students. That is what we get paid to do in my opinion, and most teachers in China have plenty of time on their hands to prepare for classes and find ways of making their classes more valuable. Some of them do just this and these are likely the teachers who are really making a difference. Some choose to continue to blame the students, the Chinese co-teacher (or lack thereof), the administration etc.
To me blaming anyone else, especially the students, for not enjoying or understanding the class is really a cop out and will never see an improvement in the situation.
The OP does have a good point however that the use of Chinese can be very valuable in helping students to understand some content such as difficult grammar points and grammar points that Chinese people don�t have in their language. I have seen (and have my own personal experience) of spending a large amount of class time trying to explain something in English only to have achieve a somewhat muddy understanding; when a Chinese teacher could have clarified the exact point with a few succinct sentences in Chinese. I am not convinced however that it is best for a foreign teacher to try and do this in Chinese, and instead believe that it is best left to the Chinese teachers to do this in their own native language. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TravellingAround
Joined: 12 Nov 2006
Posts: 423
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2007 1:42 am Post subject: |
|
|
Teaching English in China can be really tough. Classes are often far too big (I once I had 105 students in one for ninety minutes of Oral English - I knew that was going to be a tough gig even before I started!) and the real killer...a complete mix in the levels of the students. When you have a range in one class which goes from those who struggle to respond to "How are you?" except by saying back "How are you?" to students who are capable of a good conversation. Not to mention class rooms that actually seem to be designed to prohibit learning as best they can...
Ah well; them's the breaks. Personally I think too much Chinese is used in English lessons. I've eavesdropped on some lessons by the Chinese teachers and the actual amount of English spoken is tiny. They often droned away into the microphone while sat down about English but hardly actually spoke in English. For the students to go from that to a supposed hour and a half (or whatever) of English immersion with just an FT seems a bit too drastic a step for many. Confronted with a situation in which English has to be absorbed without the Chinese translation immediately following can be, by that time, alien to their way of learning.
It may recently have been getting better with more FTs in schools meaning they are exposed to this sooner but that is not across the board. What I find is never seemingly pushed is trying to get Chinese students to think in English. In other words when a question is asked many seem to have to translate into Chinese and back etc before finally answering. Yet surely some basic questions should be able to be answered almost as second nature after eight years of study?
Not wishing to denigrate the traditional Chinese style of education but is rote learning a good way to learn to speak another language? It may work with many aspects of it but I'd think for actually speaking another language it is largely incompatible. At least after a certain level. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TravellingAround
Joined: 12 Nov 2006
Posts: 423
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2007 1:49 am Post subject: Re: Speaking Chinese - an advantage? |
|
|
| joey2001 wrote: |
| What I'd like to know is if any Chinese-speaking FT has gotten higher pay or found a better job. I don't mean life in China being easier if you speak the language. I mean can foreigners actually earn more when they can speak Chinese, or are they treated better by employers? Does an HSK certificate help? How about Cantonese language skills? Does anyone have experiences with jobs OTHER than teaching in China? Are there any jobs as interpreters, translators, advisors etc. for foreigners who can speak and write Chinese available? |
I've known some teachers who could speak Chinese but they actually didn't tell their class until the last lesson this. They felt that if they did then the students would just ask for the explanations in Chinese and take the easy option out. It would certainly help with everything else however and at least you will know if a student is insulting you or not.
As for Cantonese...isn't Mandarin the language used in all public schools/universities in China? I'm sure someone will correct me if wrong! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2007 2:11 am Post subject: Re: Speaking Chinese - an advantage? |
|
|
Good post TravellingAround. You have summed things up very well in my opinion.
| TravellingAround wrote: |
| I've known some teachers who could speak Chinese but they actually didn't tell their class until the last lesson this. They felt that if they did then the students would just ask for the explanations in Chinese and take the easy option out. |
That is so true. Someone on this forum was commenting about this very thing just recently. I can understand the concerns of some students and the school administration should the foreign teachers class devolve to a Chinese discussion with some English words thrown in. Blah-blah-blah �go to school� blah-blah-blah �past tense� blah-blah-blah �He went to school�. Not too conducive for effective use of English in my opinion.
| TravellingAround wrote: |
| It would certainly help with everything else however and at least you will know if a student is insulting you or not. |
One good aspect of understanding Chinese for a foreign teacher can be understanding something that a students wants to ask a question about but cannot describe in English. They could then say the Chinese word and the FT can then tell them the English so that they can then ask the question again in English and the discussion can continue in English. Perhaps this is what the OP was referring to when he mentioned that the students opened up when they realized that he could understand Chinese. The danger is of course this getting out of control and while it may work with adult students it would probably less effective with kids as they may not respect the rules of when and when not to use Chinese.
| TravellingAround wrote: |
| As for Cantonese...isn't Mandarin the language used in all public schools/universities in China? I'm sure someone will correct me if wrong! |
Correct. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2007 3:21 am Post subject: |
|
|
Clark a bit of consistency please 
Now you write -
| Quote: |
| I can understand the concerns of some students and the school administration should the foreign teachers class devolve to a Chinese discussion with some English words thrown in. Blah-blah-blah �go to school� blah-blah-blah �past tense� blah-blah-blah �He went to school�. Not too conducive for effective use of English in my opinion. |
but then in an earlier post wrote -
| Quote: |
| To me the ideal program would have a foreign teacher teaching at least 6 of those hours with an extra 2 hours spent on review conducted by a Chinese teacher. |
if this review is not is the form of -
| Quote: |
| a Chinese discussion with some English words thrown in. Blah-blah-blah �go to school� blah-blah-blah �past tense� blah-blah-blah �He went to school� |
then what is it?
Nobody who supports the scaffolding of an L2 With an L1 is suggesting that you drown out the L2 learning by over using the L1 - but using it in situations when the the L2 understanding is not adequate for creating effective learning environments. As in any building work, when the main construction - the L2 - becomes stronger - then the support of the scaffolding can be gradually removed - with the ultimate goal of the L2 being able to stand alone and be used as the sole medium of communication within the classroom.
Trying to suggest that in one Classroom the FT must solely stick to using English, while in another the Chinese teacher uses both English and Chinese in review situation - means that if that review is to be effective then CT and FT must have a really good level of cooperation. This is hardly an immersion system as such - and infact is very similar to the old "grammar-translation" methods - since the assistant really does become a partial translator for the FT - even if this does occur in another classroom - which surely would create some sort of teaching and learning difficulties 
Clark I think it would be usefull if you tried to argue something along the lines of you believe that FT's are best used in conversational English classes - and that these classes are obviously most effective if they are conducted purely in English.
But what happens if the students English is not up to making, or indeed understanding English Conversation - does the FT who cannot speak Chinese and has no Chinese assistant have to go through an incredible act of body language mime - or rely on some very intricate system of Flash cards to bring some level of understanding within the classroom - is this the type of teaching skill you are refering to |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
joey2001
Joined: 26 Oct 2006
Posts: 697
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2007 3:35 am Post subject: Re: Speaking Chinese - an advantage? |
|
|
| clark.w.griswald wrote: |
Open up in English or in Chinese?
|
It often helps if the students "open up" in any way, regardless of what language they use, to break the ice. I was referring to an early stage in English training, like the first or first couple of classes, not the whole course. As we all know, Chinese students are often "shy", especially when faced with a situation where they actually have to open their mouths and think for themselves, something they are just not used to from classrooms in Chinese schools. In addition many of them come face to face with a foreigner for the first time in their life, which can be overwhelming to people who have practically been isolated from the rest of the world for decades (We all have had the experience of getting stared at, especially outside the big cities, to prove this). For many of them that is just too much to cope with, and they "shut down". A teacher who can speak their language is "less foreign" to them, and therefore not as frightening as something completely "alien". I exaggerate of course, but I do get that impression in China from time to time.
Many good points, Clark! You expanded on some of the things I only hinted at. I said I "use" Chinese in the classroom, but in fact I seldom actually speak it. It is more often the case that an understanding of Chinese language helps you understand the students' Chinglish better. Without knowing Chinese it would sometimes be impossible to try to figure out some of the "English" I hear. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
This page is maintained by the one and only Dave Sperling.
Contact Dave's ESL Cafe
Copyright © 2018 Dave Sperling. All Rights Reserved.
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
