Job Discussion Forums

[cornishmuppet]

Hi, a teacher passed me a note today asking for an activity to practice 'modification'. The example he gave for this is

he plays soccer / before dinner / with his friends / very well

He wanted to know the correct order for these phrases and an activity to practice similar. I'm teaching in Japan, and this is for first year junior high, 12-13 years. I suggested it was a little bit too complicated but he kind of looked at me with imploring eyes and I said I'd have a go.

Personally I think this kind of English is way too high for first year JHS, and I've kind of drawn a blank. Does anyone know if there is a rule for this, e.g, whether time related phrases (before dinner) should go before abverbial expressions (very well) or something like that? I'm not convinced the teacher's sentence is actually correct.

Any help would be much appreciated.

Thanks

Chris

[fluffyhamster]

It might be fun for some to try to work out if changes in a sentence's phrase order change its meaning, but I agree that most students, especially at JHS 1 level, would get little out of such an activity, even if it were done using genuine examples (i.e. examples within which a jumble of "propositions" weren't "struggling" to emerge). It would surely be much better to simply present good ("simpler") model sentences in which usual word orders were clear from the very start, only after which might genuine "variations" in word order (i.e. not so much varying from a 'kernel' or logical form, but in actual differing contexts and/or wordings) be explored, and then only at quite a high level (i.e. SHS and beyond).

[coffeedrinker]

First of all, I don't think "very well" makes sense in this sentence - I don't think any native speaker would say it.

I personally think trying to look for rules for something that isn't natural to begin with is something that has put many a native speaker teacher in a bad spot.

I'd ask him to find some authentic text where several phrases he's interested in are used, and then he and you can look it at together and compare how these phrases are actually used. Or, if he's really into it, he can get the students to do that so they are using their critical thinking skills too and not just, well, copying down a rule he hands them.

I don't mean this to sound so harsh, if it does. I can just see this developing into a big debate about where or if to use "very well" and it's not even a natural sentence...

(added later: I'm sure there are rules for adverb order, but there are lots of possibilities and I think trying to teach them in this way and not just observe them is more confusing than anything else. As far as activities, there is always the "cut up sentences and ask students to put them in the correct order", or simple running dictation of correct sentences up on the wall...but the sentences should be correct to begin with, and I'd want to make the point that there are other possibilities)

[georginachina]

[cornishmuppet]

Thanks guys for your comments. You've basically said what I thought, that the 'very well' basically doesn't belong in a sentence containing the other parts. This is what confused me in the first place.

He claims a student (in his words, the smartest one in the year) asked him the question in his notebook, but it terrifies me to think of a group of thirteen year olds who've only just learned the simple past and can/can't to have to struggle through an activity trying to establish rules on word order. I think I'll take it to him and see what he says. A simple activity based on, for example, the placement of 'before dinner' in a simple verb sentence would be useful, but he seems to have packed way too much information in there.

[Jizzo T. Clown]

This all assumes your students know and can use "before" and "after."

[Glenski]

There are some rules for time clauses and adverb placement, but some of them are flexible, too.

Your teacher is asking too much of a first year student.

It doesn't matter if that student was a very good one. He/She might be a returnee or a "half" or just a diligent kid. That part about very well is unnecessary unless it is meant to emphasize how he plays, and in that sentence, it could only mean he plays well at a certain time.

I can think of another way to write the sentence, using "very well" as a lead in, sort of as an exasperated sigh before stating the rest, but it would be such a focused situation that a lot of context would be needed to explain it. You will run into students or textbooks with such things, and it sometimes takes a great deal to explain it to the teachers who want to help, even the GOOD ones with lots of English grammar experience and with good communication abilities. One that I helped a lot learned to recognize such useless English bits and to tell the students to ignore them, unless they knew for certain that they'd be on the entrance exams.