Job Discussion Forums

[james_tesol]

Does anyone know the best way to explain the difference in meaning between these two?

[laura1d]

Been = came back
Gone = still there

Laura

[furiousmilksheikali]

It's better to think of examples to show the difference. When do you use these constructions?

"Have you been to the shop, Bob?" (Can I expect to find the beer in the fridge he said he would buy).

"Has Bob gone to the shop?" (Bob's not here so maybe he's at the shop - or on the way - for the beer he said he'd buy).

[gaijinalways]

And what about your cigs ?

[dmb]

[cangringo]

My students usually understand when you explain that been is the past participle of to be and gone is the past participle of to go.

My only problem is they get confused when using the past perfect of present perfect with have been. Until it's explained they don't know the difference between the continuous forms and the perfect forms.

[furiousmilksheikali]

[dmb]

[Stephen Jones]

[rusmeister]

Try this:

They should have learned that the present perfect is either:

a) a state that began in the past and continues up to now

or

b) an action completed in the past that has a result or effect now.

"Have been in" is (a). The verb is 'be'. 'Be then' plus 'be now' = was there and is still there. Tell the students that you have been in (country) for x months (years).

'Have gone to' is (b). The verb is 'go'. 'Go' in the past. Present result - the person is not present (here). A good way to explain this one is to write (on a piece of paper rather than the blackboard) "I have gone to the bathroom" and actually leave the class for a minute or two. They'll eventually get the picture that you are no longer there.

'Have been to' is (b). The 'being' in the given place is finished, in the past. It is de facto a form of 'go' rather than 'be', because the preposition 'to' is a preposition of motion as opposed to 'in', a preposition of location. Present results - I am not there now, I have mega-experience as a world traveler, etc.

Does that help?

[Sheikh Inal Ovar]

Or stand there with toilet paper hanging out the back of your trousers and ask them ...

"Where have I just been?"

[Stephen Jones]

[tanuki]

Heya

Just a note before I get to the OP's question: I don't believe--as a general approach--that EXPLAINING grammar points is ever that successful, to be honest. Sure, adults have a greater reasoning capacity than kids and many adults have learnt or attempted to learn a foreign language so (may) have an understanding of the mechanics of grammar... BUT... generally, I would advocate a "thinking" approach to getting the rules of grammar across to students. I'm not suggesting that we just shirk our responsibility and simply say "Yeah, sure it's confusing, but what you need to do is just listen and read more and you'll be allright, eh! You'll work it out soon enough" because in the majority of cases they probably won't.

However, we can accomplish our goal (i.e. for the students to work out how a particular grammatical structure is USED--including the restrictions and limitations on its use) by getting them to think about a range of contextualised, comparative examples.

What the hell am I blathering on about?

Take this as an example:

A: Hey, John. How are you?
B: Good thanks, Susan. You?
Susan: Not bad. Not bad. Um.. I'm looking for Jeff...Have you seen him?
John: Ahh...he's in Spain at the moment.
S: Really?
J: Yeah, he's gone with the boss to work on the Ramirez Account. He left last week.
S: Damn! I wanted him to check a draft report for me. Oh well, not to worry... I guess it can wait.
J: Yeah, I guess so... Say, have you ever been to Spain?
S: I have. I've been several times. Great place. You?
J: No, but I'd like to... that new guy's gone with them you know... I can't believe he's only been here two months and he's gone to Spain with the boss!

Etcetera...

Then ask a series of questions (once you've done a general comprehension of the text--which could be recorded and done as a listening first and then a "reading" task second) to get at the different uses of these participles. Things like "Where is John?" "Where is Jeffrey?" "Where is the new guy?" "Why is he being called 'the new guy'?" etc. and draw it out from there based on the MEANING rather than trying to EXPLAIN abstract rules, which are likely to go right in one ear and out the other! [Note: there's a tricky little one I slipped in there about "He's only been here two months"]

Then follow it up with something similar, i.e. contextualised controlled practice, where students have to make a choice in the grammar based on which IDEA they think is being communicated AND the particular grammatical form they need in order to communicate that idea.

Tanuki

P.S. If someone is still asking "Yeah, but what IS the goddam difference?" then this is something that can easily be looked up in a good grammar reference book. If that was the OP's original question (i.e. "iiiiiii don't understand it; please explain it to ME"), then I guess I haven't answered the question. Sorry! Instead, I've taken the approach that this info can easily be found out and the OP was asking for an effective method of "teaching" it to students.

Cheers.

[guty]

tanuki, Stephen

in the example could you imagine the dialogue continuing like this ...

J: Yeah, I guess so... Say, have you ever been to Spain?
S: I have. I've been several times. Great place. You?
J: No, but I'd like to... Do you know if Jeff has ever been to Spain before?

And how does that fit in with the various explanations?

[Stephen Jones]

I'm not quite with what you're saying here Guty? Neither Susan nor Geoff are in Spain now, which is why we use 'been' and not 'gone'.

Dmb's suggestion is actually quite intelligent. I use a Word demonstation. I have various people and I move them from Saudi, where me and my students are to other countries, and then ask 'where have they gone?". I then move them back and ask the question "where have they been?" showing another slide, with for example a picture of Abdullah with two Japanese wives, or of Fatima with a kangaroo in tow.