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Teaching on a tourist visa is that bad?
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arioch36



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 3589

PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 5:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sharnac

Quote:
Problem is they have just told me there is no time to arrange a working visa and that I should come anyway (have already booked my ticket) and then travel to Hong Kong mid May to organise a working visa

Without doubt, make sure that you have sufficient time left on your tourist visa to bail if things go bad. Make sure they say the will pay all costs of changing to a z-visa. And personally I wouls add that my teaching won't start until I get the z-visa and RP, though the school might not like that attitude, especially if they are dishonest.

T[b]suris[/b]
Quote:
If the right person doesn’t want you here, it truly doesn’t matter whether you are working here legally with a Z-Visa or even with a Chinese Green Card. Some reason will be found for cancelling it, and you’ll be told to leave

Would have to strongly disagree. Of course, we don't know the details of the situation you are referring to. And yes, if you want to go to the extreme, if the President of the U.S> didn't want you in country, he might find a way.
If you are here with a legal Residence Permit witha legal contract, the PSB and Provincial waishiban/foreign affairs office will work to protect your legal rights. They take this very seriously. I have seen this many times in henan. Is it different in Beijing? I don't know. If you are here legally, you will be protected. if it is so bad that you need to leave the school, but you want to stay in province, if you have done right, they will find another school for you. I have seen this consistent position in my many years in henan.
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Sinobear



Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 1269
Location: Purgatory

PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 5:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tsuris:

I agree with you 100% and think your post is worthy of its very own sticky.

Well done and cheers!
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Candoguy



Joined: 09 Apr 2008
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:44 pm    Post subject: Re: good points Reply with quote

daodejing wrote:
... in the US there isn't a huge effort to crack down on illegal workers. The illegal worker uses someone else's social security number and no one in the government checks to make sure that the name of the worker matches the name assigned to that number...or how someone could be working in two places at once. The employer gets in trouble the most. If you're on a tourist visa and get paid in cash no one will find out you're working illegally...but that should go for China as well.


That's exactly what happens in the UK too - but more so. In fact, it's only from this year that we have a points system for deciding who can come in to the country to work. Before this year anyone could come in to take advantage of our liberally soft laws.
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Candoguy



Joined: 09 Apr 2008
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2008 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been told by schools that a 'work' visa isn't required for short summer school contracts. So, if someone doesn't have a degree and works during the summer on a 'tourist' visa is that OK?
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arioch36



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 3589

PostPosted: Sun May 18, 2008 6:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

legally no, you can only work on a "work" (z) visa. "L" is for tourism.

Will you get caught? Who knows. If you caught, being told to leave has ben the punishment in the past. There have been more reports of PSB checking schools. Never heard of them checking summer schools, but this is 2008

I guess by law 99% of the laowai (and a good proportion of Chinese teachers perhaps) work at summer schools illegally. Never heard of any problems though
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Candoguy



Joined: 09 Apr 2008
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2008 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just received this from English First:

We would like to invite you to participate in our Sponsored Teacher Training Program. The training programme is for the period commencing from June 21st 2008 and expiring on August 24th 2008.

During the development programme, you will be based in Shenzhen. You should have read, understood and agreed to abide by the Code of Conduct, Disciplinary Policy, Termination Policy, Work Manual, and Insurance terms as attached. These attachments form part of our Sponsorship Agreement. You will need to apply for an L visa before flying to China. Although the L visa is a tourist visa you can legally work as an intern for the duration of your stay.



So they're saying that it's legal to work on an L visa as long as you're classed as an intern. This is how they're getting around the problem of summer school teaching contracts.
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pest2



Joined: 28 Oct 2006
Posts: 170

PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 7:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

arioch36 wrote:
legally no, you can only work on a "work" (z) visa. "L" is for tourism.

Will you get caught? Who knows. If you caught, being told to leave has ben the punishment in the past. There have been more reports of PSB checking schools. Never heard of them checking summer schools, but this is 2008

I guess by law 99% of the laowai (and a good proportion of Chinese teachers perhaps) work at summer schools illegally. Never heard of any problems though


Hmm, if you get caught and told to leave, is it common to also be banned from returning to China for 5 years?
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gaobidzi



Joined: 14 Jun 2006
Posts: 15

PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 8:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Take note Guys.

Contracts are the single most important thing in China. They are taken very seriously in law and by courts. The single best thing you can do is to get a contract checked by a Chinese lawyer as most are poorly written, by the company and in the companys favour of course.

Even if you are illegally working on an L visa, this does not negate both partys responsibility to the contract, they can not use this excuse to not pay you or threaten you etc, call their bluff because a Chinese company employing an alien will get into as much trouble as the alien will for doing so. The law deems that both Partys are responsible to understand Chinese law.

If they monster you about it then tell them how guilty you feel now that you understand how serious it is working in China without the right visa and feel it's the right thing to do that you and the company should go to the PSB and report the situation.

Watch for the reaction.
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gaobidzi



Joined: 14 Jun 2006
Posts: 15

PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 8:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Candoguy wrote:
I just received this from English First:

Although the L visa is a tourist visa you can legally work as an intern for the duration of your stay.[/i]


So they're saying that it's legal to work on an L visa as long as you're classed as an intern. This is how they're getting around the problem of summer school teaching contracts.


Maybe in the past but another vague loose end I'm sure China will be on top of right now. I would think a minimum of 'F' maybe even 'X' visa.
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Tsuris



Joined: 25 Mar 2008
Posts: 69
Location: Wasting My Life Away in China

PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

According to the Foreign Teachers' Guide, the only real issue is whether one is earning income. If it's a volunteer position, then it doesn't matter if one is teaching on a tourist visa.

Check out Working on L- and F-visas.
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Lildeski



Joined: 04 Mar 2008
Posts: 12
Location: NY,NY

PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 2:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A company I'm interviewing with says the teacher should come over on a tourist visa and then the school can change it to a working visa and that the school is capable of doing this. She says the school usually issues working visas but this year it is impossible so this is the way they do the visas. When I questioned her on this she said it is different in various areas of China. I asked if i would have to travel to hong kong to get it extended and she said no, that they would get me the legal working visa within a month. She kept repeating that it is illegal for the school to employ teachers without the working visa and that the school can get the paperwork. It seems legit...but I've read alot about not going on a tourist visa. Also, the company seems to offer a good contract but does pay in USD. What is the disadvantage of payment in USD?

THANKS!
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Tsuris



Joined: 25 Mar 2008
Posts: 69
Location: Wasting My Life Away in China

PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 3:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let me ask you a hypothetical question. Do you seriously expect a recruitment agency that is engaging in unscrupulous behaviours to openly admit that do you? Or do you think they might say instead "Oh, don't worry, this is the way we do it in this part of China!" If you believe that, then I have some beautiful beach front property in Tibet I can let you have at a great price (in fact, we're running a newbie special today and today only: 20% off the regular price).

Read carefully: DO NOT MOVE TO CHINA FOR THE PURPOSE OF EARNING INCOME WITHOUT A Z-VISA IN YOUR PASSPORT!!!

There are numerous reasons for this. If you have any questions, click on the link above for middlekingdomlife.com and learn why.
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Eyrick3



Joined: 29 Mar 2008
Posts: 161
Location: Beijing, China

PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 1:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've heard you will get fined up to 500 RMB per day, up to 5000 RMB once you try to leave the country on an expired tourist visa. I've also heard they can detain you if it's too long after that.

Any good school will change your tourist visa over to work visa shortly after arrival.
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Lhenderson



Joined: 15 Dec 2008
Posts: 135
Location: Shanghai JuLu Road

PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agreeing to be 'flexible' on working for a few months on a tourist visa can lead you to make a good impression on those like myself in hiring positions at major schools in major cities where the competition is feirce to get hired.

This allows supervisors such as myself to put you on probation for 3 months to see if you are a good teacher without having to go through the process of issuing a Z visa. If we want to hire you after the probation, we will get you the Z visa, but not before we agree to hire you full time. Many schools will appreciate your understanding.
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Teatime of Soul



Joined: 12 Apr 2007
Posts: 905

PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lhenderson wrote:
Agreeing to be 'flexible' on working for a few months on a tourist visa can lead you to make a good impression on those like myself in hiring positions at major schools in major cities where the competition is feirce to get hired.

This allows supervisors such as myself to put you on probation for 3 months to see if you are a good teacher without having to go through the process of issuing a Z visa. If we want to hire you after the probation, we will get you the Z visa, but not before we agree to hire you full time. Many schools will appreciate your understanding.


By "flexible" do you mean "Work illegally without any benefit of protection"?

Since it is the schools duty to "go through the process" of securing a legal working visa, why would any reputable school manned by competent staff ever even consider asking an employee to work illegally, without mandated medical benefits, or a scintilla of worker's legal protection?

Why would any employee place themselves in legal jeopardy, work without any guarantees; becoming a disposable commodity to "make a good impression" on someone promoting an illegal endeavor?
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