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ravel
Joined: 28 Jan 2007
Posts: 50
Location: Pyeongnae, then Osaka
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 Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 1:06 pm Post subject: Job finding pointers for Japan / Osaka |
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I'm just wondering if anyone has any good pointers about finding Jobs in Japan. From what I read here, March is prime time to find a job here. I have been looking here and any other site I can find, there are a few jobs beyond the 250,000 yen per month, but not often by much and not that many. Given that I have read that this is an entry level wage for someone with no experience, why are so many jobs making this very mediocre offer? I am in Japan looking for a job and so far finding that the industry almost seems to find getting a decent teacher a bother, expecting MA's, Japanese proficiency, in place visa's and at least 2 years Japanese teaching experience. Are they getting these expectations fulfilled? If so what strategies should someone with one year ESL teaching do to get in the door? It seems that more time in Korea would not satisfy many employers expectations since it's not "experience in Japan". I have the option of teaching here, returning to Korea, or Canada, am I expecting too much to NOT work for the evil and corrupt mega schools, make at least 250,000 yen a month, and work 25 class hours a week? As usual I am looking for CONSTRUCTIVE FEEDBACK. Thanks in advance for any who have some to offer.
Ravel |
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canuck
Joined: 11 May 2003
Posts: 1921
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 1:11 pm Post subject: Re: Job finding pointers for Japan / Osaka |
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| ravel wrote: |
| I'm just wondering if anyone has any good pointers about finding Jobs in Japan. From what I read here, March is prime time to find a job here. I have been looking here and any other site I can find, there are a few jobs beyond the 250,000 yen per month, but not often by much and not that many. Given that I have read that this is an entry level wage for someone with no experience, why are so many jobs making this very mediocre offer? I am in Japan looking for a job and so far finding that the industry almost seems to find getting a decent teacher a bother, expecting MA's, Japanese proficiency, in place visa's and at least 2 years Japanese teaching experience. Are they getting these expectations fulfilled? If so what strategies should someone with one year ESL teaching do to get in the door? It seems that more time in Korea would not satisfy many employers expectations since it's not "experience in Japan". I have the option of teaching here, returning to Korea, or Canada, am I expecting too much to NOT work for the evil and corrupt mega schools, make at least 250,000 yen a month, and work 25 class hours a week? As usual I am looking for CONSTRUCTIVE FEEDBACK. Thanks in advance for any who have some to offer. |
http://www.kfm.to/
http://www.kto.co.jp/classifieds/employment.html |
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Gypsy Rose Kim
Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 151
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| Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 4:03 pm Post subject: |
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Well, first of all, why are you so convinced that the mega schools are evil and corrupt? I had great experiences there, and my NOVA experience has come in handy in both Japan and Korea when I applied for other jobs.
If you plan to go elsewhere in Asia, chances are your employer will have heard of NOVA. Not just the crap people write on here, but more importantly, they all secretly want their schools to become as huge and famous as NOVA. They'll be happy to have you work there just so they can try and figure out what it is that makes NOVA tick. I know this because I often run into ex-NOVA teachers on my travels, and we all have the same experiences.
At the interview for the highly sought after (there were over 200 applicants) Waseda University International tutoring position, I was told that they were very, very keen on former NOVA teachers.
Bear in mind that unlike every company I've ever worked for in Korea, at least at those evil schools like NOVA you won't have to do any prep. Zero. Zilch.
Honestly, though, I don't care if you work for them or not.
I do hope you realize that a year of experience is not that much. I mean, Canadians without degrees do that on a WHV. One year of experience outside of Japan, no visa, little or no Japanese language skills? I honestly don't know why you think you should get more than an entry-level job.
I'm not trying to dash your hopes. What I want to say is, don't knock the Big Four just because it's a hobby on Dave's to do so. Be realistic about what you can do there. You're NOT going to get Korea-style cash in Japan unless you've been there a while. And if you want to come back to Korea, be very picky about who you work for. There are certainly places here which will look good on a resume in Japan. |
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ravel
Joined: 28 Jan 2007
Posts: 50
Location: Pyeongnae, then Osaka
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| Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 5:49 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for your thoughts,
I'm not expecting a top job and am aware that Japan doesn't touch Korea for money. I just wanted to come to a country where I hope there is a snowball's chance in hell that the school actually gives a shit about the kids as opposed to just profits. At least here if my employer is the unethical, greedy dishonest piece of crap like my last employer was I can leave and still work legally in the country. Ok, so NOVA has no prep, but is there any evidence they actually care whether the students learn something, make a positive difference in the kids lives? Yes, I have heard that all the big schools don't really care about the students and that is the main, though not only reason I don't want to work for them. I suppose I could just fit the system, accept a job at NOVA then bolt with my new work visa to another job, but I'd rather just find a GOOD job with a GOOD and ETHICAL employer.
So any suggestions HOW one might do that, and who if any schools fit the above description, or is Japan an expensive KOREA with a different work visa law? |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 10:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| there are a few jobs beyond the 250,000 yen per month, but not often by much and not that many. Given that I have read that this is an entry level wage for someone with no experience, why are so many jobs making this very mediocre offer? |
Many (Most?) foreign teacher wannabes are not in the EFL game seriously. This is evidenced by the fact that most of them have no teaching degree or experience before they set foot in Japan. Is this a chicken and the egg thing (because immigration doesn't require a specific degree)? I don't think so. If people were truly serious about teaching, they would get the qualifications to make them a teacher despite such immigration regulations, IMO.
So, "entry level" is a generic term that many of us use because despite staying at a job for a few years, you may not get a raise in pay. Why should an employer consider that just because one has stuck around, and when one has not done anything to improve their credentials? You may say that none are needed, but you will get an argument there.
1. Japanese study English in HS for 6 years (and many students that age go to eikaiwa and juku), yet they don't know more than the rudiments of grammar and have even less command of conversational English. We all know why this is so, but is that any reason why we native English speakers can't truly help if we have proper teaching backgrounds, based in sound teaching theories?
2. To say that no credentials are needed only perpetuates the viscious circle, and I disagree with doing that.
| Quote: |
| I am in Japan looking for a job and so far finding that the industry almost seems to find getting a decent teacher a bother, expecting MA's, Japanese proficiency, in place visa's and at least 2 years Japanese teaching experience. |
What are you talking about in terms of "the industry"? Most ads call for a bachelor's degree and practically nothing more. What you report sounds more like university positions, not entry level ones. Is that what you're talking about?
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| what strategies should someone with one year ESL teaching do to get in the door? |
If you want something more than the "evil corrupt" 250,000 yen/month employers, then look at what is out there to do that:
university jobs
business English jobs (some)
international schools
rare tenured HS jobs (private HS)
your own business
a huge string of PT jobs (which requires the right visa situation)
With some exceptions, those are the places that offer more money, but don't expect more stability in most of them. Want to shoot for these? The strategy is simple.
Get the MA or PhD for university jobs, plus some language proficiency, publications, and experience here.
For international schools, you'll need a teacher's degree and license from your home country, plus experience there.
The other options above will require specialized abilities. Get them.
Bear in mind that you may have to stick it out here for a few years (yes, years!) before you work your way up the ranks to earn the experience I cited. I've seen your resume, ravel, and it is shows you have only slightly more experience than most newbies (a degree in psychology, a year experience in Korea, and a TESL certificate). Don't expect much more in most countries. You have to earn your wings like the rest of us.
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| I just wanted to come to a country where I hope there is a snowball's chance in hell that the school actually gives a *beep* about the kids as opposed to just profits. |
With the majority of eikaiwas, you won't get that chance. They are in it for the money. It's a business. If you want a place that cares, you have to deal with the above options.
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| who if any schools fit the above description, or is Japan an expensive KOREA with a different work visa law? |
If you expect to waltz into Japan (or probably most countries) with your credentials and get a high-paying job, you have set your sights too high. There may be some rare exceptions here, but you will have to look high and low for them, and people working there are not going to be willing to give away their goose with the golden eggs, especially to someone on an anonymous discussion forum.
You seem to be focusing only on the big four eikaiwa, when actually there are thousands of smaller ones, some with chains and some just single-shop locations. It is not easy to find information from outside Japan, and it is not even that easy to do so when you are here, but being here for a while, and making contacts is the obvious strategy to take.
Japan DOES have a different work visa law. Here, you keep the visa until it expires, while in Korea, if you lose your job, you lose your visa. Not sure if you knew that, or if you were alluding to something else above. |
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ravel
Joined: 28 Jan 2007
Posts: 50
Location: Pyeongnae, then Osaka
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| Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 1:59 am Post subject: |
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Thank you for your help with the resume Glenski,
I get the impression you are a "trained teacher", have a teaching degree. Not that it isn't a good thing, but I remain amazed that teachers specifically are convinced only people with teaching degrees can teach. I agree that many ESL teachers are only here because they can be, but like you said it's a chicken and egg thing. The industry (I mean ESL teaching in general) perpetuates it, for me in my mere first year am already frustrated with the indifference the employers first and the teachers second show toward what is supposed to be the goal here TEACHING. I expect that many people like myself get sick of trying to do some real teaching ( yes some of us non teachers have that ability too). Bye the way I have over 7 years teaching martial arts, but somehow that isn't considered teaching. Anyway, hiring only teachers isn't the solution, not enough "real teachers" too meet the demand. If the industry did some thinking it may occur to them that their general attitude and if it's like Korea here, incompetence in management, and lack of support for the REAL TEACHERS (by this I mean people who can, do and want to teach regardless of their degree) drives them out. A real teacher cares about whether their students get something out of their classes, and in my case I get sad if I think that isn't happening. So the problem is....the industry here frustrates and drives out the exact people they need. Getting more qualifications if fine, but I know plenty of PhD.'s who are useless teachers. The geniuses running these businesses would do much better if they gained a clue about running a business too. A successful business DELIVERS what it promises to, in this case that should be English education. If there was a significant portion of the industry that did that it would be evident in their students, I'm thinking it's not. Korea's English proficiency is pretty bad, and so far form what I've seen Japan's is comparable to worse. The industry I think (I mean employers here) deserve what they get, those who do not deserve what they get are the students. Teachers are caught in the middle. I wish I had the money and know how about Japan to start my own school because at the worst from what people tell me here (Japan not just Dave's esl) I could do better than most of what's here. I'd hire anyone who showed teaching ABILITY over teaching creds, yes I think even idiots can get a university degree in education (or any field). The specifics of learning theory could be taught in house, I've met plenty of "real teachers" who have little to no grasp of even basic classical conditioning, and learning theory. Did you know you can teach a headless cockroach to lift it's leg on cue? If that's possible, and toddlers are capable of learning their native language, could it be that the system is the problem? |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 3:38 am Post subject: |
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Hi, ravel,
I didn't want to take your OP off-target, so I'll try to keep this brief.
No, I don't have a teaching degree, nor am I a trained teacher. I'm pretty much just like you. I have degrees in science, for what that's worth, plus a meager TESL certificate. Of course, I've worked here in eikaiwa, private lessons, high school (PT and FT), business classes, and university for almost 9 years.
| Quote: |
| I remain amazed that teachers specifically are convinced only people with teaching degrees can teach. |
That's not what I meant. Just looking at the percentages, though, it is far more likely that you will find someone who knows more about teaching if they get educated and/or trained in it, than your average person off the street with a BA in history or microbiology. The average person in Japan needs no specialized teaching background, so the industry attracts people who use it to fund more hedonistic goals (dating, sightseeing, cultural interests) over that of teaching. If teachers were forced to have credentials, it might change that aspect and lead to better potential for educating students.
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| it's a chicken and egg thing. The industry (I mean ESL teaching in general) perpetuates it, for me in my mere first year am already frustrated with the indifference the employers first and the teachers second show toward what is supposed to be the goal here TEACHING. |
Depending on the employer, you are going to have to re-define that goal. In Japan, eikaiwas are not into teaching; they provide a service to people for money. You understand. Don't know about Korea, but here, the eikaiwa clients are housewives, retirees, business people, some college students, and kids. The adults take eikaiwa classes mostly to socialize, whether with each other or with a foreign teacher. They want to go to a class as a hobby, not to become perfect English speakers. This is in general, of course. The eikaiwas meet that demand. Mainstream schools have a different goal -- that of preparing students for college entrance exams. As such, those exams have little to do with learning communicative English, so you will get the vast majority of HS graduates who can barely get past, "Hi, how are you? I'm fine, thank you." University students aren't much better, depending on their major, and lots of them can graduate simply by showing up for the class 60-80% of the time. That's all. Unless they are motivated enough to take TOEIC classes, they are selected more for the name of the school where they graduated than on grades or English ability. And, until this year, TOEIC has been a completely passive test anyway (reading and listening only, no speaking or writing). So, mainstream schools pretty much meet their goals, too.
You might want to read this article about the different POV between eikaiwa managers and professional teachers. http://www.eltnews.com/features/special/015a.shtml
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| Anyway, hiring only teachers isn't the solution, not enough "real teachers" too meet the demand. |
But if the demand were truly there, and if there was a restriction on their qualifications, things might change.
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| A real teacher cares about whether their students get something out of their classes, and in my case I get sad if I think that isn't happening. |
We're alike in that respect, but just how many "real teachers" (trained or otherwise) are out there in TEFL-land? I've seen and heard of a huge number that just want to collect their paycheck. If they run into a problem in class, they don't care much. If you want to stay on track with comparing trained vs. untrained teachers, though, let me run this hypothetical past you. What would the average BA holder do if he sees his students failing to learn or grasp something? The average person might get upset or discouraged, but in my opinion, would they try to improve on their teaching ability? Maybe, maybe not. So, what would the average BA holder (in history or microbiology) do about that? He has few to no reference materials other than the Internet, few to no professional colleagues with which to confer, no organization that he may have joined to rely on, and he has probably no intention of attending a workshop or seminar to gain more skills or education. People with teaching credentials are more aware of all of those things, and just playing the percentages again, they are more likely to have such resources and the motivation to use them. Caring alone is not enough.
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| I wish I had the money and know how about Japan to start my own school because at the worst from what people tell me here (Japan not just Dave's esl) I could do better than most of what's here. I'd hire anyone who showed teaching ABILITY over teaching creds |
And how would you measure that ability?
Ok, let's get your topic back on track. I hope others chime in with comments about the strategies you seek. If you want to continue this other line of discussion, I'd be more than happy to do so on another thread or in private. Best of luck. |
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ravel
Joined: 28 Jan 2007
Posts: 50
Location: Pyeongnae, then Osaka
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| Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 4:36 am Post subject: |
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Thanks again for your comments Glenski,
Yes it was a digression, and yes I do want more people to lend any useful strategies about finding a worth while job here. I too am here for reasons other than just teaching, but I learned a long time ago that a happy/fulfilling living beats a good paying job. Anyone out ther have anything pragmatic to add, any real stratgeies...? Just looking for a decent job in Osaka, or Tokyo. Yes, I need sponsorship. |
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sidjameson
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 629
Location: osaka
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| Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 4:57 am Post subject: |
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No, I don't have a teaching degree, nor am I a trained teacher. I'm pretty much just like you. I have degrees in science, for what that's worth, plus a meager TESL certificate. Of course, I've worked here in eikaiwa, private lessons, high school (PT and FT), business classes, and university for almost 9 years.
Glenski's words fit to a tee my situation too. There are two paths in Japan, not mutually exclusive. The MA, publications route or the, enter Japan, get a job on the bottom rung, do your job as well as you can, look around for a better job, try never to make enemies, take opportunities that come your way, work your way up route.
Actually thinking about it, I know far more people in the second category than the first. |
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ravel
Joined: 28 Jan 2007
Posts: 50
Location: Pyeongnae, then Osaka
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| Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 6:50 am Post subject: |
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I have considered getting an online masters in education or some esl masters, but have decided to hold off until I am at least into a second year teaching in Asia and know this is going to be something I will want to do long term. Is there any decent, well respected masters degrees people can get online, and if there is are any NOT outrageously expensive ala even more than if you went to a REAL building with face to face teaching? From whatI have found so far they somehow cost more than if the school had to pay EXTRA for you not needing a building, a paid instructor in front of you...what's with that? Finally if good masters programs do exist online can anyone point me to one?
Thanks,
ravel |
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