Job Discussion Forums

[no_exit]

Particularly those of you with experience hiring/managing FTs ... what in the world would you do in this situation?

As some of you know, I'm running a start up school in Kunming. We've got branches outside of Kunming which are affiliated with us, but I'm not directly responsible for them, although I do help out with the hiring.

Recently, one of our branch offices requested two teachers, and I hired an American couple for the job. The contract offered a fair salary and decent terms, and the teachers were very happy with the deal and grateful, as they were in a quite dire financial situation, having been screwed around by a local (non legit) Kunming school.

Now my school and all our branches are completely liscenced to arrange visas and work permits for our teachers. The male teacher of the couple had managed to have his L visa quite nearly expire on him, although the situation was resolved by his going down to the PSB with someone from our local office and begging and pleading for an extension. His residence permit couldn't be applied for until he reached the branch he was to be working for, but we had to buy him some time in the meantime. This all took place within a few days. The teachers also asked if they could have an advance on their first paycheck, which we, here in Kunming, gave him on good faith, as the couple was down to their last 10 or so RMB.

After two days, the day before they are supposed to leave Kunming, they say they've run out of money. This is after we'd already loaned them 1000RMB just two days ago. This, in retrospect was the first sign that something was up, but we agreed to loan them a bit more so that they wouldn't arrive at their destination broke. Once they got there, however, the local branch office quickly discovered that the male teacher's visa still posed problems, as he had gotten an extension with a contingency that he had to leave the country at the end of that visa, and could not extend or convert his current visa (my school can normally get visas for teachers without them having to leave the country). This meant he had to go to Hong Kong for a new visa, requiring further financial assistance.

My school normally picks up all visa fees, but these were fees outside of the residence permit stuff, it was all simply fixing the teacher's initial screw up of waiting until his visa (which had, I should mention, already been extended once) was practically expired before doing anything about it, and hence ending up with that dead end non convertable visa that required him to go to Hong Kong. He would have had to go to Hong Kong had we hired him or not, as his visa stipulated he must leave the country. So of course, the teacher borrows more money for the HK venture, leaving his girlfriend, whose visa is ok, behind to work.

I got called during my vacation. Apparently the teacher was still in HK, had run through all the borrowed money, and was asking us to wire more. He had also missed two flights back to the mainland which had been booked for him. He apparently ran into problems picking up his visa. The school reluctantly wired him money, making about 8000RMB that he's borrowed total. I told the school to book him one more flight back, and said that if he missed that he'd be on his own. I sincerely did not imagine that he would miss a flight again, and I thought his visa was already processed, as he told me that he simply had to pick it up and be done with it.

However, I guess that wasn't the case, because I just received an e-mail from his girlfriend, who is panicking, saying that her boyfriend's visa application was DENIED by the visa office in HK, that he's down to his last 100HKD, is staying on the streets, and has no idea what to do.

Now, I'm fairly p*ssed at the couple for getting themselves into this situation in the first place. They struck a nerve with my Chinese partners immediately when they ran through that 1000RMB in two days, but all along the school has still given them the benefit of the doubt, wired money, and tried to do what we could. However, at what point would you say "enough is enough?" I have to admit that I, having hired these people, feel very responsible for what has happened, and I know that my Chinese partners are not going to be happy with lending more money to this couple, nor will they be happy if the girlfriend runs off to Hong Kong to rescue her boyfriend or whatever and stick the school with close to 10K of debt. How the hell do people end up in these situations anyhow? I mean, at the point that the male teacher's visa was about to expire, he hadn't even accepted my job offer yet, and seemed completely unconcerned about the outcome! They ran through money at such an extreme pace that the school is having trouble believing them when they claim they *need* more. Should we just wash our hands of them and cut our losses? Give them one more last chance?

To be 100% completely honest, I've even considered telling the branch office to take the girlfriend's passport until she's paid back the money they've borrowed and telling the boyfriend to figure it out on his own. I feel like such a jackass for even typing that, but I feel betrayed by these people. At the same time, I do know that, careless as they were about their visas and their funds, some things *were* out of their control. Why would his request for a tourist visa be denied in HK anyhow? And HK is wicked expensive, I know, although I feel like even there a couple thousand RMB should last at least more than a day ... but anyhow.

So. What would you do? This forum sees an awful lot of complaining about this school or that school, but here's a situation from the other side. What should a school do when a FT puts them in a lose/lose situation? Best case scenario, of course, would be that the school lends them the money they claim they need, the male teacher returns to the school, and they work off their debt and go on their merry way. But can I afford to take a gamble on this pair again? Help me out folks, I'm at my wit's end here.

[China.Pete]

There have been a few threads discussing whether or not FTs are misfits, unable to make it in their own countries of origin, not alone China. I guess if you assume that the pair (or at least one of the two) you're dealing with here is about par for the course, you keep lending them money in hopes they'll get their lives back together.

Some people, however, are simply incapable of handling money. It must begin sometime in childhood, because they seem to operate on the theory that the more quickly they can burn through their "allowance" the more their "parents" will give them; since they clearly need more.

Holding the passport of the working party to assure performance of the non-performing half, now lost in Hong Kong, would probably just generate another thread or two here about YOUR chool. Perhaps you can salvage something from the better half, since she obviously needs to work long enough to earn the money she will need even to move on.

[kev7161]

If the girlfriend is there and currently working (for how long now?), then you put a lien on her wages. But first talk to her and find out what she is planning. If she is going to stay and wants you to help out her bf a bit more financially, then I would keep her passport (make xeroxed copies for her) until bf is back where he should be. Make sure she knows as well that the money lent so far will be taken out of her pay and, eventually, will start coming out of bf's pay if/when he ever starts working and actually earning money.

If she can't or won't agree to that, then bf is on his own. If she cuts and runs, then of course keep whatever she's earned so far as payment against the money you've given out and take the loss - - lesson learned.

I think you can only do so much for (backpackers?) people like this and they'll milk you dry if you let them.

[Isotope]

I would ask did the person who hired this teacher not check references before doing so. It would seem it would a responsibility to the school and to the students to make sure teachers are of high moral quality before hiring them and extending money.

Most teachers come to China with a desire to experience a different culture, for travel and an opportunity to live abroad, and to get teaching experience.

As to teachers being "misfits" and not able to find jobs in their own countries I must say, there are almost no teaching jobs in Canada and other countries, yet schools keep churning out teachers. Also not allowing old teachers to collect pensions and keep on teaching would go a long way to making room for younger teachers.

Canada has too many too old, out of touch, over the hill antiquated teachers who are "double dipping" - collecting both a pension and a salary from the Government.

The students lose, the education standards lose, the younger teachers lose - only the fat cat with both hands in the cookie jar gains anything - and for these teachers its all about the money. Greedy fat cats.

They dont care about the students or what quality of education they deliver, they dont keep up with new methods, its all about the money.

[no_exit]

Thanks guys.

In the time since I've posted this I've gotten two more frantic e-mails from the girlfriend. She's apparently decided that as soon as they have enough money for it they want to go back to the US. Now how long it will take them to come up with that is another story, but imagine how angry I was to read that after continually helping this pair out, she's wanting to jump ship and go back to the States! Boyfriend still apparently thinks he can get a visa in HK, although it is very hard for me to figure out from here what the *actual* visa situation for him is. If I KNEW that he would get the visa and KNEW that he would get on a plane back to his girlfriend, then I'd lend him the money one last time, but with these two I'm feeling less and less confident that will happen. The going back to the States stuff might just have her panicking about the situation, throwing in the towel, etc. The idea of keeping her passport leaves me a bit cold, but the Chinese side sees it as the only way to go, of course. I'm still hoping for the best, that come Monday he'll get his visa straightened out and will be on a plane, but ... wishful thinking? Kev's suggestion is closest to what I've come up with. I don't want to be the big bad evil school screwing over the hapless FTs, but these two got themselves into this situation. I don't want things to get nasty (the FTs are angry with the school and are still grateful so far), but I can't let my school get trampled on either (nor let myself get into a situation where I'm vouching for a couple of losers who intend to screw us over, which makes me look bad with my school).

I don't think these two are bad people, but like you say Pete, some folks just can't handle money. I'd like to think that this situation has taught these two a lesson, and they'll suck it up and take the situation they've created for themselves with a bit of grace (the school, by now invested 8k+ in these two, will, in all actuality, probably still be willing to help to a *reasonable* degree). I guess it should be a lesson learned all around, as I'll certainly be more careful about hiring newbies from now on. Keep this thread in mind when you're negotiating with a school too ... schools have to protect themselves from crap like this, which probably happens all too often. FTs aren't the only ones who get screwed over in China, heh.

[Steppenwolf]

If my opinion were asked anywhere, such techavellers would never get one mao out of the school upfront!
No why or what - that's a very rational policy being followed just about anywhere where people use commonsense and intelligence. You don't go to a foreign country penniless, and if you do, it's your own responsibility and no one else's.

[HunanForeignGuy]

Dear No_Exit,

I sure as the devil feel terrible for you.

I do not agree with the other posters on this thread.

There are many, many FTs who would like to teach in Kunming and in Yunnan. It's one of the more favorite places.

Frankly, the looser in Hong Kong -- cut him loose. What's the passage about throwing pearls before swine? Nothing, but nothing good will come of him for sure. Find a replacement.

As for the girlfriend -- well, that's more ticklish. Tell her that she has thirty days to look for another job. Find a reason that has to do with the contract.
And then clean house

because

when it starts out like this, it sure as hell doesn't get any better at all. And only the other day I was lamenting on this board about all of the MOD EDIT that floats around here. I surely do feel for you.

HFG

[no_exit]

[no_exit]

HFG, just to clarify, the teachers were going to another branch, not in Kunming. My Kunming teachers are all happily working on good visas and collecting their wages. It is just these freaks who had to take a good thing and screw it up.

And Step, perhaps you're right, in retrospect. I don't think they came over penniless though, I think they got into a bad spot in Kunming. Foolish me, thinking that this was an opportunity for them to get their acts together and get themselves out of the situation. The Chinese of the school actually told me that we could lend them money before they even asked, so we were all obviously being quite naive, never having been screwed before by FTs. The situation was that the branch they were going to had another pair of teachers back out at the last minute, leaving them teacherless quite late in the game. They were quite happy to have this pair coming on, and perhaps were a bit blinded by their American-ness (deadbeat Americans? Who woulda known? At least from the Chinese POV anyhow)and their previous experience and assumed that any loans would be minor. They lent the money before the extent of the boyfriend's visa problems were fully realized anyhow. I can almost assure you though that this is one school that won't ever again loan a penny to an FT off of future earnings.

[HunanForeignGuy]

Dear No_Exit,

I completely feel for you. 1000%.

I learned a big lesson on this Board. I don't help newbies in China anymore. Not ever.

First there was this Canadian girl. She begged me and begged me to help her get a job. On this board. And I did -- because otherwise she was not so hireable (not diploma, no TESOL, no experience, greener than a green bean). As soon as she got the job, I received buckets of sh** all over me. It's like the kindness never happened. So now she's in the frozen extreme far north in a village of 5,000 persons were the temperature hits -45 C. in winter.

Then, no_exit, my worst experience. Another one on this Board begged me for a job. A British. I went out of my way to help him -- as an act of kindness, like you. Little did I know that he would fake his medical exam in the UK (must have a doctor friend). Once on the ground here, they made him retake his medical as a matter of routine procedure. HIV + to the extreme. And God knows how many people were exposed to it. He was rapidly put on plane back to Mother England.

And then my other act of human kindness -- a Middle Eastern, non-native speaker, again from this Board. Begged and begged for help in PMs. So I helped. Got a job through a friend and just didn't bother to show up.

So from now on, when I see a foreigner laying prostrate on the ground (aka on this Board), well, either one of two things : I won't help at all (that is a given) or I will simply not help at all.

Be careful, no_exit, I have learned this lesson the very hard way. Most of the trouble I have had in China has come to me from the crazy trash that lands up here, not the Chinese.

HFG

[no_exit]

Thanks HFG, the point is certainly well-taken. Kunming does tend to attract lots of misfits, and finding good teachers here can be like looking for needles in haystacks. It is a very easy place to live, a laid back social scene, plentiful dope ... the perfect recipe to attract deadbeat backpackers apt to flake out.

I've met some great FTs out there, and the vast majority of the people I've worked with have been decent honorable sorts, but the sad fact is that it only takes one bad experience to completely break the trust between schools and FTs, and that trust is exactly what needs to be build up, rather than destroyed.

[cj750]

1000 in two day..I'd look at drugs....and if that is the case..drop em..no questions ..no remorse...no more chances..

[tw]

[no_exit]

[latefordinner]

cj750: